To wonder about cause and effect - cosleeping

[Goostacean]

I’ve noticed that I’ve met several mums with babies (10-18months) who don’t sleep through and have never slept through, and they cosleep in the bed.

Are those with bad sleepers resorting to cosleeping longer term, or does cosleeping disrupt sleep?

I’ve barely done it- just for a few hours when baby was merely weeks old between 6-9am sometimes, after baby had spent the night in the cot. We always had very bad sleep in the big bed, and are all far happier if I return baby to the cot. I can’t help but wonder whether not cosleeping would solve/improve the sleep issues these babies have?

Yes they ARE relevant!! The human race has evolved BECAUSE we co-slept. It would not have survived if everyone had been separated at night. Human babies need constant comfort (see rhesus monkey experiments). We are mammals, not some automaton species.

I just think it’s silly when cosleeping is referred to as modern. Other posters understood me

But we’re not discussing how we evolved. What evolutionary use does co sleeping have now? The poster above, a sleep expert, has stated that the way our lives are now, she is seeing damage from co sleeping.

I would also question our true knowledge of ‘modern ways’ versus a generation or two ago.

MIL delights in telling me that in her baby group everyone fed their babies at night they just didn’t tell the doctors or HVs because they knew they’d be told off. Many didn’t tell their husbands! Lots of women very jealous that FIL ‘allowed’ MIL to co sleep with her babies, as opposed to cosleeping on a blanket on the floor in the nursery for the core hours of the night and then pretending oh yes I was in bed with you all night, baby didn’t wake, what a doll.

Also we visited my parents once and baby was screaming, I was trying to settle him in my old bedroom. As an experiment DH walked across the house to Parents bedroom and listened, couldn’t hear DS.

So I reckon it’s not that there weren’t as many bad sleepers, it’s just that more people A) lied or B) in the absence of baby monitors, just didn’t hear the baby

I think midwives and health visitors are also more positive on safe cosleeping nowadays. My youngest dc was born 2 months ago and the first night she wouldn't settle at all unless she was feeding. So the midwives made my bed safe by removing extra bedding and showing which position is the best for cosleeping. We slept well that night.

I used to co sleep with my mum but she never would have called it that, she just plonked me in the bed because otherwise I wouldn't sleep.

My DS on the other hand has always hated co sleeping. Even from tiny he didn't want to sleep on us, he wanted to be in his cot.

I hate the line "adults don't sleep alone so why do we expect children to". I HATE sharing a bed. I much prefer to sleep on my own.

'Damage from co-sleeping'.

What kind of damage?

What evolutionary use does co sleeping have now?

It gets parents like me a lot more sleep at a time in our lives when we desperately need it. (Doesn’t work for all parents, of course, but there’s a lot of us who did it because it got us more sleep.)

The poster above thinks co-sleeping causes bad sleep, stops children learning how to sleep, and leads to generations of sleep-deprived children. If that was true we’d have had generations of sleep-deprived children for 99% of human history.

This does get misunderstood a lot. So to clarify:

Not saying: “we should cosleep because we all did it in the past.”

Am saying: “cosleeping isn’t going to stop children learning how to sleep, because when we all did it in the past that didn’t happen.”

Yes we live in different conditions today, but how would that be relevant to whether cosleeping ruins babies’ ability to sleep or not? Either it does or it doesn’t, and human history suggests rather strongly that it doesn’t.

It's completely normal for children to wake during the night. They don't have sleep issues.

It always fascinates me how animated this discussion becomes. For me it’s a simple philosophy I apply to most things.

Don’t like cosleeping - don’t cosleep.
Don’t like sleep training - don’t sleep train
Don’t like abortion - don’t have an abortion
Don’t like love island - don’t watch love island.
Etc, etc...

I co slept. From about 10 months it became uncomfortable for me as toddler DS would wake me, but he was sleeping fine.

I moved him into his own room at 14 months because I was back at work full time by then and couldn’t cope with being woken through the night. He’s slept through reliably in his own room ever since.

I co sleep by choice from day 1. She's 18mths now. Sleeps and naps wonderfully. Sleeps anywhere, doesn't need darkness or quiet and is a very very confident little girl. She is happy around children and adults and didn't have any social anxieties like I did with my non CO sleepers.

I don't think CO sleeping does damage. The fact we have to sleep certain hours because of work and school and our lives are out of sync. Some cultures still sleep say 3hr followed by awake time followed by another sleep. I reckon that's long term better for us!

DS5 co slept and still likes a night or two with me a week when OH isn't there. He didn't sleep through full till he was 12/18 months but he was BF on demand till then, was never a problem as he slept fed. Never had a problem with his sleeping, if anything the problem is waking him up. He sleeps anywhere you take him, through anything

By the way ‘how is our biology relevant to our culture’ is an interesting philosophical, socio-political question and it’s an important one we should ask in many many areas of our lives.

I think most people realise this deep down but are too busy getting on with things for those kind of wondering thoughts.

Then you have a baby and BAM it’s a front and certain question as babies are pure biology with no culture yet thrust upon them.

That’s why this discussion gets so animated. Because it taps into the yearning people have to ask and discuss these deeper questions.

That’s my theory anyway

I read the OP and was annoyed by the undertone of smugness. I take it OP now sees the light.

Great that sleep has worked out for the OP so early on. I have had 2 horrendous sleepers who ended up being long term co-sleepers for my sanity who are now brilliant self-sleepers without my imposing any form of 'discipline' other than go-ing with the flow (whilst tearing my hair out). Co-sleeping may sound like a rod-for-one's-back when the dcs are babies but it now gives me some of the best snuggles and memories particularly as a working mother.

In hindsight, if you are a reluctant co-sleeper for sanity, it is not the worst thing in the world. This too shall pass and great things are around the corner. Looking on the bright side, the only way is up.

Shack up and 53- I was quoting the poster above - who works in a sleep clinic. That they are seeing problems related to lack of sleep discipline / hygiene.

I’m not anti co sleeping, as stated many times I am a co sleeper. I am starting to hate it though because I do believe long term it’s been detrimental to my family. Short term, yes. We all got more sleep

I think sleep discipline is a myth, though.

We sleep differently throughout our lives. My mum's tearing her hair out because she's up half the night. She's in her 60s. I would say she's normal and that at an earlier point in our evolutionary history, elders 'kept watch' during the night. Teenagers go to bed late and wake late. There must be an evolutionary reason behind it.

I'm not sure we can take the word of any anonymous poster as being that of an expert tbh.

Mine have co slept from day 1, and both older ones would self settle and sleep through by around 1. #3 is 8 months and will fall asleep being cuddled and wakes a few times in the night for feeds, but because he is next to me it is no issue.

I think much of the difference is in perception. My first child was never a fan of sleep, so we quickly adapted to this level. We don't expect babies to sleep through or on demand/routine etc.

Coslept with DD who is now 5.
She slept better with us and we only kicked her out because I was pregnant and she's been sleeping fine in her own bed (shares a room with DS though as hates being alone anywhere)

Cosleeping now with 10wk old and he sleeps 8-4 then wakes for a feed. Fully waking at 7.

Breastfed both and it was much better sleep wise.

DH would prefer not to but as he's the one who doesn't have to wake during the night, it's my choice haha.

Granted the sleep clinic sees issues (that is why people take their children there in the first place), the cause and effect is not properly understood and conjecture at best. The poor sleep could be due to physical ailments, chaotic life, stress in the family - would the sleep clinic know all this? It is a glib extrapolation to think that sleep training or discipline is the silver bullet. Where is the proof?

Sleep hygiene isn’t about the baby sleeping through, and I agree of course small babies shouldn’t be expected too. But mine is bloody 4!! She can sleep through. She won’t go in her own bed because why would she want to?

There often seems to be a misperception that going to sleep alone/sleeping through the night is a skill that is mastered (like crawling or walking) and once mastered they'll automatically carry on doing it (except for illness/teething etc). But for a lot of children it simply doesn't work like that. Sleep in babies and small children can wax and wane with developmental/emotional factors. It's not a linear progression.

DS1 was a fab sleeper from early on (12 hours at 12 weeks and he was EBF). Self settled in own from from six months. No effort from me he just did it. Then at 18 months it went to hell in a handcart and after weeks of multiple night wakings we ended up bed sharing most of the night, because we got some sleep that way. On and off we bed shared with him for a couple of years.

I am with Shackup that co-sleeping is the evolutionary biological default rather than a baby sleeping by itself in a cot.

A baby that is separated from its parent is incredibly vulnerable out in the open and is programmed at some level to know it needs to be near its mother to be safe. Both my dcs, slow learners on the sleep front it seems, took a lot longer to cotton on that times have moved on and they were alright by themselves at night. I don't see a compelling reason (for their benefit, as opposed to mine) to force them down this learning path before they were are ready. In their primitive baby state, they were just trying to increase their chances of survival.