To wonder about cause and effect - cosleeping

[Goostacean]

I’ve noticed that I’ve met several mums with babies (10-18months) who don’t sleep through and have never slept through, and they cosleep in the bed.

Are those with bad sleepers resorting to cosleeping longer term, or does cosleeping disrupt sleep?

I’ve barely done it- just for a few hours when baby was merely weeks old between 6-9am sometimes, after baby had spent the night in the cot. We always had very bad sleep in the big bed, and are all far happier if I return baby to the cot. I can’t help but wonder whether not cosleeping would solve/improve the sleep issues these babies have?

The study is a longitudinal population based study , so just tells how the babies were sleeping. If anything I think sleep training was more common in the past ( Gina Ford, Trudy King) . I agree hours and hours of screaming are distressing for everyone, which is why it is key that the baby gets taught to fall asleep at the right developmental stage. This is when sleep cycles and circadian rhythms have been established, so probrably not before 6 weeks. Most babies do start going one longer stretch between feeds in 24 hours around this age. If the parents know to time this so it falls between 12 and 6am consistently then there is very little crying involved. In my experience ( working with a sleep clinic) the worst sleepers have continued to feed and sleep like a newborn with multiple night waking a until 9 or 12 months by which time sleep training is stressful and may well involve lots of crying. The rise in the number of melatonin prescriptions for school age children is testimony to the fact that we're are clearly teaching children to sleep less well than we did in previous generations. The irony is that this is at a time where research is being published which shows poor sleep is linked to obesity, poor mental health , reduced academic achievement etc.
We are turning in to a nation of poor sleepers and in my opinion it starts in infancy

It’s really hard for us to go out. She won’t settle for anyone else.

It was a life changer for me when i could put them in their cot at 7pm knowing they'd sleep through uninterrupted

It would have been a lifechanger for me, too. Sadly I could not convince the baby of this, despite presenting many compelling arguments. It’s not always quite as simple as ‘get them used to the cot and they’ll sleep through’...

That’s fascinating stillwish. Do you think people like us could benefit from professional help at this stage? (She’s 4!)

I coslept (actually bedshared) with my daughter from about 4 weeks when she woke every time I tried to put her down in her Moses basket. Never intended to as I'd read all the mainstream (in my opinion biased) 'advice' about never sharing a bed etc. Thank god I found these guidelines cosleeping.nd.edu/safe-co-sleeping-guidelines/ at that point so I knew how to do it safely and that I wasn't doing something 'wrong'. Then it was a case of desperately trying to work out if other mothers were doing it and finding support online- and guess what -plenty of people do do it around the world. It's the biological norm and most cultures practice it. Does this mean worse sleep? It depends what you mean by 'worse sleep'. For me it meant less having to sit up in bed and trying to stay awake and then trying to wait until she was properly asleep and trying to time and position her/put her down so she wouldn't wake up and then she woke up and then having to feed her to sleep on repeat again versus, pop her on the boob, and drift back to sleep. Did she wake up more overall? Probably yes, and yes she probably woke up more than formula fed babies on average although I know of FF babies who woke up more than she did, as a PP has said you just don't know what underlying issues the baby is dealing with to need parental input to go back to sleep.

So I was one of those bedsharing breastfeeding mothers slightly despairing at 11 months of her ever sleeping through the night. I decided to try gentle techniques from the No Cry Sleep Solution and the Gentle Sleep Book which helped moderately. Then around 15 months I decided that I needed more help/sleep at night and we gradually introduced my partner who then coslept with her on a 50:50 basis. She did start waking less at that point, which could have been developmental but also may have been because milk wasn't 100% available. She also gradually over time started to feed to sleep less in that it wasn't as effective in getting her to sleep. She got her own bed and room at just over 2, is now 3 and starts the night off in there (we generally stay with her til she goes to sleep, occasionally we'll say we're off to the loo if we think we are keeping her awake), and she'll sleep through 50:50 and come in to our bed at some point in the night otherwise. It's fine, doesn't affect me that much and quite nice to have the cuddles sometimes. If she didn't go straight back to sleep after a short feed or disturbed me in the night or woke multiple times it might be different for us.

I'd agree that it is the norm for cosleeping/breastfeeding children to start to sleep through the night around 2, and would suggest that's the biological norm.

I think you need to balance your needs and those of the baby. In the first few months the biological needs of your baby (to be close to you, frequent night feeds and waking for most) should take priority to meet their nutritional needs and to prevent SIDs. Then after that it's finding your way. I feel that parents should be told how to bedshare safely. We were actually told that it would be ok to do if breastfeeding by a lovely health visitor before my daughter was born (my husband reminded me later) but I blanked it out because the 'official' advice seemed to categorically against it.

So in response to your AIBU I'd say it's not that simple, it will vary so much by baby and parent. Sleeping separately might make some children sleep worse, or the process of migrating to sleep separately might seem so challenging for some parents that they know it will be too much hassle to attempt.

If anything I think sleep training was more common in the past ( Gina Ford, Trudy King

Truby King was the 1920s. There’s a lot of human history before that, and for most of it we were cosleeping (because most of our ancestors wouldn’t have had a choice!). Sleep training was not a thing for most of history, not even when parenting advice literature started taking off in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I'm a hcp and work with families who are at crisis point with sleep. I agree that the trend in cosleeping and particularly 'toddler led' sleep (note I'm all for baby led) is creating a nation of sleep deprived children.
Routines and boundaries are vital for good emotional health ...I think there's been a real confusion around 'attachment' it's not always physical- it's about children feeling emotionally held as well and routines and boundaries are so important for this.

It used to be believed females couldn’t be autistic. Melatonin prescription is commonly linked to autism. A doubling of prescriptions in an age where female autism is recognised shouldn’t be at all surprising. And I’m not sure there’s been a doubling.

I am pretty sure I am autistic. As a child I was wondering the house at 1am after a strict bedtime routine no messing at 7am by my parents. All they taught me was not to disturb them they didn’t teach me to sleep. By the time I was ten I was secretly self harming with kitchen knives during my night time perambulations.

I maintain often there are underlying causative factors for sleep and it should never be looked at in isolation

Oh and try reading Chauncer with sleeping arrangements in mind.

Sleeping alone is a modern idea for sure

Who cares what they used to do in Chaucer’s time? It wasn’t superior! It was a time with poverty and disease was rife, life expectations were low, infant mortality high, it was MISERABLE. What is the motivation to elumate it? I’m honestly sure it’s just because it suits your view

53rdWay wasn't easy for us either but we were on our knees with sleep deprivation and lack of time as a couple - sleep training was really tough but so worth it long term

If I could have laid either of my babies down and settled them to sleep calmly in a cot I would have. Both of them screamed bloody murder any time they were put down anywhere so I spent both their babyhoods with them in slings in the day and in bed with me at night.

What is the motivation to elumate it?

There’s not a motivation to emulate it. You’re missing the point.

The point is that for most of human history, we’ve been co-sleeping. So unless you believe that for most of human history, we’ve been terribly sleep-deprived? Because evolution was waiting for us to build nice detached houses in Surbiton with a separate room for the baby before anyone could sleep properly? That just doesn’t make sense.

It's cultural as well what we think of as a good sleeper or not.

DS pretty much co-slept (usually the first bit of the night in the cot/toddler bed) since he outgrew the snuzpod and we all love it.
DH is Asian and slept with his parents till he started reception...then one day just asked for his own bed/room.

'Official' advice tends to be different to. I read the Italian versions of things like babycentre sometimes and it's all very much 'co-sleep, it won't make them clingy.' CC is strongly discouraged...I actually had to explain to my DM what it was! So I really don't think its used often.

Yeah, Thirtyrock, but I was on my knees and it still didn’t work. It’s not always a case of “just do XYZ and it’ll be hard at the time but then your baby will sleep!” Sometimes, your baby just won’t.

glint I think the pp was just pointing out that the idea of a baby sleeping in a cot is a modern one - invented in the West in Victorian times as they believed that it was dangerous for a baby to breathe in the "noxious gases" emitted by its sleeping parents. Before this co-sleeping was the norm, as it is in many other cultures around the world today. Human instinct is to sleep with others - most people sleep with their partners as a matter of course and I'm sure most babies would prefer it as they love to be close to their parents, though there are of course exceptions.

I'd agree re: cultural norms in pre - industrialised societies, however I would question how relevant that is when parents need to work set hours and children must attend school 9-3 and ideally be alert, both (parents and children) .

I coslept with my son for the first 5 months as I was bresstfeeding and he wanted to be on every bloody hour..he settled much better next to me but woke up frequently.
He went briefly to a cot in our room and then to his room..He woke less frequently in his room but still 3-4 times per night.
It lasted till he was 2!! Now he sleeps through most of the nights..Sometimes will wake once..

With my baby the first 2years were just very very hard sleep wise..I don't think anythink made much difference( stopped breast feeding at 12months) an cosleeping certainly wasn't making him wake less...
He sleeps much better in his own room..it's a challenge to book holidays as we need to bedrooms!

Mmm, Stillwish. I’d question the assumption there that not cosleeping = better sleep for all involved. For me cosleeping was the best way to get sleep for myself once I went back to work (was back before 6 months). Also the best way to make sure I survived in the day on mat leave before then, because the effects of the sleep deprivation were getting dangerous before I moved to that.

Yes stillwish it's early days for me, but I've had amazing sleep - pretty much a full night since day 1 - because of cosleeping - that's why I've done it. My baby never cries at night and I never have to try to get him to sleep- it's pretty blissful atm.

MentalUnload Information on safe cosleeping
www.dur.ac.uk/resources/isis.online/pdfs/ISIS_bed-sharing_2014.pdf

Information on why it is so important that professional understanding safe cosleeping as judgemental advice as been linked to an increase in SIDS
www.unicef.org.uk/babyfriendly/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/07/Co-sleeping-and-SIDS-A-Guide-for-Health-Professionals.pdf

I was scared to cosleep as we had to formula feed as 6 months when I did put DD in bed with me one night she had a big smile on her face, cuddled in and immediately dropped a night time bottle.

Now at 2 (25 months) she can take a while to fall asleep but unless unwell, or holiday or major developmental change (potty training) she sleeps through by herself and has since approx 23 months.

Most of human evolution is pre-industrial revolution. Co-sleeping is the biological norm. 'modern work/school patterns' are just that, something we've devised based loosely around daylight hours to get stuff done.

'Why Love Matters' has some good info on why sleep training isn't ideal (I don't hold with everything in the book).

But we don’t like under those circumstances anymore. They’re not relevant

I agree that co-sleeping is a biological norm..no other mammal leaves their young away when they are feeding them..
No other mammal uses formula either though so yeah...probably better to have the baby in a cot next to your bed or in something like chicco next to me..for safety..