To send dd to an "inadequate" secondary school which has a nice feel and better progress 8 than the grammar

[Liz79]

Dd is in year 5 and open evenings have started. We have only been to 2 so far. The inadequate school was a much better show than the grammar school, it was calmer and better organised. Each family was allocated a pupil to be their tour guide, the staff were more articulate and willing to speak to us, last year's progress 8 was the best in the area. The % getting GCSE Maths and English was inline with the national average and better/similar to other local schools (except the grammar which got 94% compared to the England average of 43%). They are moving to a new build in 2020 which will be a 5 minute walk away. The grammar is 20 minutes by train, the evening felt chaotic, staff weren't very engaging. It has an outstanding Ofsted report, still has a +ve progress 8 but lower than the inadequate one. There are still a couple of others to see as well. I am also shocked by how many GCSEs kids have to do: English language and literature, maths, double or triple science, ICT, RE... that's 7/8 before you've made a choice. Aaarrrgghh it's all too hard.

Grammars don’t just prepare for exams, they prepare for life. Kids will use and capitalize on connections and experiences for a long time. It just cannot compare.

Grammar all the way.
Why chose an inadequate school even if they put on a good show?

So you're saying connections trump a good education?

Are the connections made at grammar schools really that great? I mean I can understand that argument for public schools but grammar? I'd be surprised. I worked in a "failing" school in a pretty crummy area but there were plenty of bright kids who did really well there.

And if a grammar school can't prepare for the open evening are they even preparing that well for anything else?

To give you an example at the local grammar friend’s daughter got to volunteer every summer for a different overseas wildlife / education etc cause. Friend’s on benefits and the school funded her to go provided she could fund raise part of the money herself. Friend’s daughter got references from all of these places and school connections to arrange work experience with a human rights lawyer. She now has everything she needs to walk into Oxbridge for Law (and probably walk into a pupilage). That wouldn’t have happened in a normal state school.

Some schools are quite selective in terms of what they show on these evenings. Regardless of the type of school, they will deliberately choose certain pupils to carry put the hours etc. Although fair play tonthe first school if they are putting a lot of effort into a decent open evening and I would see this as a good reflection of the school.
Have you read the Ofsted report? What makes it inadequate? Is it a decent grammar school? Not all of them will be fantastic.

What was their progress 8?

I am a fan of grammars but from op opinion I would favour the non grammar.

Capitalise on connections?

Do you mean an ordinary grammar or a posh private one?

I went to an ordinary one and trust me no ‘connections’ were made. It’s not Eton

The other school had to try harder so that’s why the grammar doesn’t.

What does your dd want to do?

Yabu and a bit naive.

Depends on the child DS wanted to attend the grammar he is naturally very bright and is coasting. But his confidence has grown in leaps and bounds and he can hold a conversation with anyone and always creates a favourable impression.
DD has no interest in grammar attended local state school and doesn’t have the same conversational skills or confidence that DS exhudes in abundance. Go with what you and your child feel is best. By the beginning of year 6 most my DC were extremely mature and able to decide.

Send your child where you want them to go. If you don't like the grammer then don't send them there!

Progress 8 is the figure which shows you how well children progress in a school.

What you need to know for your child is this:

If they have special needs, can the school accommodate it and facilitate learning in a suitable way?

Is your child self motivated, able to learn independently and keen to achieve? A child like this will do well in a comp.

Read the ofsted report and find out what led to the inadequate rating. Challenge manager and ask them about it. Can they satisfactorily convince you how they have improved?

What extra curricular is offered, how does it compare with grammar?

Find out what your daughter thinks, what does she want??

People will try to convince you either way but only you know the actual Schools you're considering, all schools are different some comps are fab....even an inadequate rating shouldn't stop you making your own judgement. But proceed with caution and grill the staff!!

My DDS school has an inaequate rating when she joined.It is now excellent and exam results above average .
I would go with the school you felt best about.
Exam results sometimes don't tell the full story ,if you want good results you don't let children who get lower results sit the exams you weed them out before.
I also think children are doing too many subjects,my DDS school they do 10,I think they would do better doing 8and more teaching time spent on them.

Progress 8 is only one measure of how good a school is. Do both schools offer the same range of GCSEs and extra-curricular stuff? You can get good progress 8 by limiting choice and forcing children to only focus on subjects that count for that measure.

Can you go see the "inadequate" school on a normal school day? See what behaviour and lessons are like every day rather than judging how good a show they can put on.

As for 7/8 mandatory GCSEs, that was normal when I was in secondary (I'm 34). Having said that, normally it's only religious schools which insist on RE.

Inadequate has progress 8 of +0.32, the grammar +0.1

DD is unsure. She said that the grammar will give her a better education, then we showed her the statistics on the gov.uk website.

What is the intake for each school in terms of SEN and ESL?

To give you an example at the local grammar friend’s daughter got to volunteer every summer for a different overseas wildlife / education etc cause

There are plenty of volunteering opportunities in this country, without having to spend a fortune and which have as much impact for the beneficiaries as an overseas trip. For me, this shows the contrast between doing something because you want to make a difference and doing something to look good on your CV. I know which one I'd prefer my child to do.

You couldn't pay me to live in a selective area and there was no way my children were going to the one grammar school in the region, I feel very strongly that they are generally a Bad Idea.

Why do Ofsted say that the comp is inadequate? Sometimes schools fail on (serious, but in the grand scheme of things minor) issues like a register being completed wrong at the time of the inspection.

If the comp has Ofsted-recognised issues in either behaviour or teaching and learning, stay well clear, no matter how good they are at massaging the figures - there are still a lot of ways to manipulate Progress 8 to give you a better score. Simple reason, if the kids cannot behave even for Osted or if teaching is seen as failing (because kids don't make enough progress in lessons, usually down to a cba mentality on either part), then your child will suffer in the long run.

A positive Progress 8 is much harder to achieve for grammars than it is for your normal comp. When kids already come in on an average 6 in year 7, there is only so much they can progress, compared to an average entry of 3, when the highest they could ever score is a 9. The biggest difference between grammars and comps is the ambition parents have for their children, which translates into children who generally will be pushed to try harder.

Sorry, but many years of teaching would have me faour the grammar school over the other.

I think judging a school on the organization of its open evening is a mistake. It is not necessarily reflective of the school day to day. It sounds like the non-grammar you've looked at is on the cusp of turning around, that can be great (and I think there is an awful lot to be said for a close school too), but those turnarounds are also often precarious. I think it's important to consider what the problems were that made the school inadequate, and on the progress 8 front, whether the good progress would be applicable to where your daughter sits on the ability/achievement scales, not just what they do on average across the whole range.

I'm not super keen on grammar schools, but I have quite academic kids and I would be wary of sending my kids to a school that didn't have a solid history of sending a reasonable number of kids to good universities or, if no 6th form, of getting the sorts of GCSE results (grades and subjects) that will be expected for a good university. As well as wanting them to be able to capitalise on their academic abilities, I don't want them at a school where working hard on academics would set them apart from their peers.

Are these the only two schools you're really considering?

Apply for both. See which one you get.

The Inadequate school might have a + P8 because the intake is below average academically. That score might hide low attainment at the top end. The Grammar only takes pupils of the highest ability, so it's hard for them to exceed expectations (150 students targeted A-A, achieved A-A across the board - hardly a failure).

I’d say the Grammar. I’m a bit anti Grammars, despite having been to one myself. However we have messed up with DS. He didn’t want to go to the Grammar and there was a year on year trend of parents locally keeping DC in local schools instead of sending to Grammar in neighbouring county so local school stopped had a lot of the children that would have traditionally gone to Grammar in it now. Know people who have had DC going to Cambridge and some doing Medicine and Vet Med.

So all good on face of it. What I hadn’t taken into account was funding cuts and courses not running. Schools are cutting courses if not sufficient numbers to run them. It’s happening at one of the Grammars as well and I assume the others. However of you have a cohort where access to the course is determined by predicted grades for English and Maths as in DS’s school for Computer Science then you are going to be more likely to be in the situation where insufficient numbers will opt for it and the school then say not viable to run. I suspect that less likely to happen in a Grammar.

German has also gone though we did know that before but decided to take that on the chin but now DS in position where two of the options he’d always wanted to do are gone. I’ve hugely kicked off and am waiting to hear if they can accommodate Computer Science somehow. They know as things stand he’s likely to bail for sixth form and he’s one of their high achievers and they want to keep him so appear to be trying to sort something but I’m not optimistic. Pretty much a done deal that he’ll transfer at sixth form to one of the Grammars as I’m not risking his A Levels.

So a bit long winded but in current financial climate I would be much warier than in the past as think you're more likely to have limited choice of courses.

That inadequate school won’t be inadequate for long with that score.

I would do a bit
More homework and pill opinions in a local Facebook page maybe ?
I understand what you are saying though
We (they) have to work till they are 70

To be children and not hot housed for their teen years is appealing

Also what does she think ?

The train is a positive thing for learning life skills but will mean friends are more spread.

The progress thing is neither here nor there. The comp will get some kids who underachieve and who then engage. The grammar will generally have children whose parents supported them to do well at primary so statistically will look like less process.

Also don’t be fooled by open evenings. They are completely staged and no reflection of the school. Schools know how to work these events and a less popular school will have to pull the stops out to get pupils. Visit the schools during the school day instead. Make an appointment and make sure you’re walking through lessons and break times.

I am pro comp generally but some kids do suit grammar.