To send dd to an "inadequate" secondary school which has a nice feel and better progress 8 than the grammar

[Liz79]

Dd is in year 5 and open evenings have started. We have only been to 2 so far. The inadequate school was a much better show than the grammar school, it was calmer and better organised. Each family was allocated a pupil to be their tour guide, the staff were more articulate and willing to speak to us, last year's progress 8 was the best in the area. The % getting GCSE Maths and English was inline with the national average and better/similar to other local schools (except the grammar which got 94% compared to the England average of 43%). They are moving to a new build in 2020 which will be a 5 minute walk away. The grammar is 20 minutes by train, the evening felt chaotic, staff weren't very engaging. It has an outstanding Ofsted report, still has a +ve progress 8 but lower than the inadequate one. There are still a couple of others to see as well. I am also shocked by how many GCSEs kids have to do: English language and literature, maths, double or triple science, ICT, RE... that's 7/8 before you've made a choice. Aaarrrgghh it's all too hard.

Great progress 8 score.
Can you get a personalised visit to non grammar school to talk through any concerns?
As for grammars having it easier- I am not so sure. I understand you get better progress 8 score moving an A to A* than a D to a C...
Ofsted is interesting but lots of concern about ofsted institutionally favouring schools with generally more advantaged intakes. Be wary...
A lot to be said for a local school.
Visit both perhaps and talk to Heads with a list of pertinent questions.

Exam results don’t tell the whole story, my local school has amazing exam results but that is because everyone I know whose children go pay for tutors.

I've worked in both. Beware smoke and mirrors (and new builds).

If your DD is very bright I would send her to the grammar. The progress rate at grammar will always be less than at a comp because they kids start at a higher place and have a shorter journey to make. Progress 8 is a good measure to look for for struggling kids but not for clever ones who are at the top anyway. Grammar schools also have fewer distractions that comps and they don’t have the anti intellectualism comps can have where studying isn’t cool and there is a lot of mucking about in class.
I disagree about connections though. Grammar schools hold the same mix of children as comps in our area there is no access to the elites.

Well, whose to say. I went to a Grammar school where I was mercilessly bullied for years and the very name of the school would send a shudder through me. While at the same time I am glad of the education I got there.

I was just looking at its wikipedia page today though and in its near century and a half since it was established and its huge size it has really produced hardly any significant people.

Is it still possible to change to grammar school at 13 and 15? Maybe you could start her at the school you like and if you don't feel that it is a good fit, try to move her to the Grammar when she is older.

Ignore the bollocks about connections and "walking into Oxbridge". Deal in facts.

Why is the non grammar rated inadequate?

Lot of grammar school fans here!
Keep on visiting schools on your list and revisit those you have further questions about. Request individual visits during the school day and have questions for the Head.
Interesting to see which schools will accommodate that.
If visits not possible, email questions to the Heads.
Good luck!

I'd advise caution on Progress 8.

There's a school I know who get a lot of lower attainment at KS2, then get some of the 'best' results in the area, outstanding rating etc, but they do it by limiting the curriculum, pushing most students onto vocational routes, putting every y11 student through thr ECDL, having a small cohort who hit thr ebacc measure for P8 whilst using the open category to pull it up (e.g. one course even the teacher says there's not 2 years of content and the whole course is pretty much done in a year and it's easy to get a distinction).

Another local school gets students in on sky high KS2 and it means that there's lots of students who can only contribute 0 to Progress 8 because they either get an A* (worth 0) or less.
Another is in SM but still strives to offer a full curriculum, doesn't play fhe game as much and was given 4s for a particular reason.
I'd put feelers out around the area and wouldn't take the open day at face value.

My son went to an outstanding high school, in fact we moved to the village we live in so that he could go there. However, they let him down badly, did not give him any time at all and he did not get anywhere near the required GCSEs to go to his 1st choice 6th form. We managed to talk him in to a 6th form at a former failing school, which had recently become an academy (in a lovely new building). This school gave him the oversight that he needed and had expectations of him that they made sure he was meeting. It was so much better for him and I wished he had been there from the start.
I do think our local school just benefits from the fact that we are in a naice area, with engaged parents. They actually do very little outside of the absolute basics.

Like a pp I would urge you to be wary of smoke and mirrors. The school that is RI has far more to prove to prospective parents and as such will put on more of a show. The grammar is likely to not find filling spaces a challenge and so likely to be less 'showy'. I work at a very challenging school in RI and our open evening is a sight to behold- it bares little resemblance to day to day life once there.

Some schools will let you have a tour during the day when students are there and lessons taking place. If you need to see what the school is actually like, I'd recommend it.

Progress scores can also be propped up in leafy schools through parents who tutor etc.
Exam factories can do well as well.

What kind of student is DD? In my experience secondary moderns (by which I mean a "comprehensive" in a grammar area) are very bad at the higher ability students as they simply don't have the resources to deal with them and there aren't enough of them to make it worthwhile (although there are still a few in every class). I've seen some really high ability students just coast and get bored because the work was nowhere near challenging enough. They also might have discipline problems that wouldn't be apparent at the open day.

The disadvantage of a grammar is that perfectly adequate students can end up feeling like failures for getting B's instead of A*. Traditionally they are also very bad at supporting students who are having difficulties. They set a lot of work and tend to rely on the student to turn that work into good grades. Most of the time that works but if there's issues (including mental health issues) they can be appallingly bad at dealing with them.

There must be a reason the school was deemed inadequate. When was the inspection?

I would always be very wary about schools which have guided tours in the evening and at weekends.

The schools we visited held their pupil guided tours during a normal school day - giving everyone chance to see what the school looks like under ‘normal’ circumstances.

Our catchment school (which was our last schoice) puts on a big show in the evening. I wonder what they’re trying to hide...

I've noticed round here the grammars tend to have lower progress 8 scores and have heard before that it's harder for a grammar to get a good score due to high scoring kids on entry.

Plus my head of the governors friend at a local comp say loads of schools fiddle the progress 8 score. Not sure how but she reckons it's bollocks.

Dd went to a shit comp after passing the eleven plus. Had a terrible five years mainly due to behaviour from other kids and high teacher turnover prob due to the fact they couldn't hack the kids behaviour. And I don't blame them.

She did ok in her GCSEs but she would have done better in a school where the other kids worked harder. I'm not saying all comps are like this but I think there's more chance of disengaged kids.

Do a tour during a normal day, and you'll get more of a feel for the place

NotARegularPenguin
Not so much fiddling P8, but if you are creative with your course selection then some are rather easy to get high grades so you push those courses in order to get an astronomical 'open' category score, which in turn will boost your P8.

E.g. one school in my region has a well above average P8 score, but well below average Ebac score (and the ebac categories affect P8). It's common knowledge they offer a limited curriculum and do things like pull a whole cohort off timetable to do ECDL.

I have an academic ds and yet have huge issues round the Ebacc. He has a good selection of subjects- even being allowed to do History and geography- love his school for that...
He is dropping a Mumsnet favourite ebacc subject so he can do music gcse as ebacc so limiting.
I am glad the school is not forcing him- as an able child- down a restricted route...

I would talk to as many parents as possible who send children to each of the schools, and do more research than just the visit. Read the full Ofsted report for each in full. I would be very interested in the reasons for a school being rated ‘inadequate’.

Do you live in an area with a full Grammar system, like Kent?

I am not a supporter of the grammar system but if I lived in a full Grammar County and had a Grammar ability child I would probably send them to the grammar.

But as others have said, it does depend on the individual schools.

Will he pass the 11+?

Grammars don’t just prepare for exams, they prepare for life. I would agree. Have one DC in super-selective and on in a comprehensive so I feel I can comment.

There's a massive difference in their educational opportunities though, particularly the 'enrichment' side of school life.

However, I get where you're coming from about the feel of the schools. We visited one grammar school where the open day was a chaotic shambles and some of the members of staff were beyond arrogant. It really put us off.

Dinky
But as you say, the option is there for him.

What I'm talking about is schools deciding that only 20% of their students are allowed the option to do an ebacc combination, not out of concern for the child, but because the school would rather get a distinction in an open bucket easier course than allow a child who wants to do Geography to study it.

Doesn't she have to pass the 11+ before you even have the choice? I would look again after you've got the results and , in the meantime, talk to people

A couple of things my mum said to me when i was younger that have always stuck with me, and she was a secondary teacher and the first in her family to get into the local grammar. It dosent matter how good the school are, if they are not the correct fit for your child, your child will not flourish. Also, if you have to be tutored to pass the entrance exam, would you rather your child be the struggling one at the bottom in the grammar or in the top 10% in the mainstream.

"Grammars don’t just prepare for exams, they prepare for life"
Well, some do. So do some comprehensives and some secondary moderns. And vice versa. The only generalisations you can make is that grammar schools will get better on paper results, because they have a much higher % of higher ability children, grammar schools are going to have less behavioural issues because they have very few disadvantaged children or children with additional needs or children with challenging home lives that they have no choice but to bring to school.

Whatever you do, take claims about grammars being the only type of school that can "prepare you for life" with a pinch of salt. There are plenty of "normal state schools" that do all the stuff that DuchyDuke claims can only happen in grammars.

Go with your gut instinct. It’s usually right!