To send dd to an "inadequate" secondary school which has a nice feel and better progress 8 than the grammar

[Liz79]

Dd is in year 5 and open evenings have started. We have only been to 2 so far. The inadequate school was a much better show than the grammar school, it was calmer and better organised. Each family was allocated a pupil to be their tour guide, the staff were more articulate and willing to speak to us, last year's progress 8 was the best in the area. The % getting GCSE Maths and English was inline with the national average and better/similar to other local schools (except the grammar which got 94% compared to the England average of 43%). They are moving to a new build in 2020 which will be a 5 minute walk away. The grammar is 20 minutes by train, the evening felt chaotic, staff weren't very engaging. It has an outstanding Ofsted report, still has a +ve progress 8 but lower than the inadequate one. There are still a couple of others to see as well. I am also shocked by how many GCSEs kids have to do: English language and literature, maths, double or triple science, ICT, RE... that's 7/8 before you've made a choice. Aaarrrgghh it's all too hard.

The grammar is doing extremely well to get a +ve p8, this can be very tough with the brightest kids as if they are highly graded on their ks2 sats they are 'expected ' for p8 purposes pretty much to get all A's at GCSE.

Agree with what pp have said about this being easier in the other school and yes to checking the curriculum.

If you didn't like the open evening event, why not book a separate tour or a chat with the head?

I also say don't be suckered into the show.

Our local inadequate academy put on a great show. Combined with amazing grounds and facilities as it's a new building it would likely have persuaded many parents to put it down.

It was too much..let's just say the students and the work on the wall didn't back it up....

Go back on.a regular day.
Get the bus at the right time. That will tell you much more.

On paper it's doing better than the one we is going too. Both put on a way to try hard show but the difference in the kids was what finally decided what order to put them in.

It was helpful and articulate if not a bit too "happy" vs plain rude and no idea what to say outside of "instructions

That was true last year Bertrand but not now that all GCSEs are reported at 9-1.

Process 8 doesn't measure the progress of an individual as such. It compares their attainment at one point in time with that of other students who achieved the same score at the end of KS2, across a range of subjects. So schools with predominantly high achieving students certainly can achieve a high P8, as another poster has reported below, as high prior attainers are compared with other high prior attainers only.

New year - I was merely quoting duchyduke at the top of the thread

Inadequate has progress 8 of +0.32, the grammar +0.1

As said by a PP, this doesn’t mean that the inadequate school pupils make better progress than the grammar. Progress could be the same at both schools or even be better at the grammar. Look at the confidence intervals.

The inadequate school put on a better parents evening because it needs bums on seats and so actually has to work to recruit students. The grammar will be handed the best students in the area on a plate and so doesn’t actually need to make an effort to impress parents.

I’d be going over that Ofsted report, and any monitoring reports with a fine-toothed comb. They don’t usually give Inadequate to actually good schools for no reason.

Try for the grammar.

If you don't get in back up school will be there.

fake new style of grammar - what does that mean?

It’d be U to choose the poorly rated and unpopular school IMO. I went to a middling comp with decent stats and it wasn’t a picnic.

The popular state schools where I live don’t make anywhere near as much effort to “recruit” parents: they don’t need to.

In my experience a lot of people regret not going the grammar route when it comes to years 10/11.
I think ‘connections’ are pretty thin on the ground but grammar school students tend to have highly engaged involved parents (you have to be to pass 11plus) and that in turn helps with behaviour and pupil enagenment.

The comp will have a huge incentive to put on a great open day, the grammar will fill anyway so the open days are of limited use.

“The grammar is doing extremely well to get a +ve p8, this can be very tough with the brightest kids as if they are highly graded on their ks2 sats they are 'expected ' for p8 purposes pretty much to get all A's at GCSE.“

Really? I’d be pretty shocked at a grammar school that didn’t have +ve progress 8.

Take the grammar place if she passes. If you don't like it the inadequate school will always have places to fill. If you take the inadequate school and find it's a complete disaster you aren't going to be able to transfer into the grammar.

The "show" they put on to get pupils is irrelevant. It's a snap shot in time and a deliberate "show". The bottom line is one school is inadequate the other is outstanding. That's the reality of every day life in those schools for their pupils and the education the kids will receive.

Go for outstanding, go for the grammar and give your child the best shot they can.

Open Evenings are just that - an evening. It's fairly easy to make a school look good for a short period of time.

I'd go for the grammar.

Progress 8 is an interesting measure but not the whole picture.

Does your child need a peer group capable of 7/8/9s at GCSE, or a peer group capable of 4/5/6s at GCSE?

IMHO, the most important focus of a teenager’s school experience is friends; having a group of likeminded people to hang out and develop and share aspirations with - socially and educationally. Where do you think she’s most likely to find these people OP?
Don’t be swung by a league table which only shows the comp is doing good things with whatever raw material arrives on 1st Sept, or by an open evening staffed by “lovely kids” when they’ve handpicked the most confident, polite and presentable 5-10% to lead tours that evening (my daughter’s school does this - very evident when you come to know the school and its student body!).

There's some right tosh being spouted on here, I went to a Grammar School and believe me no 'connections' were made. Nor did it prepare me for life, well no more than a decent school, good upbringing and positive outlook would.

If it feels right then it is right x

I sent ds in year 6 after home edding for 2 years to a school judged inadequate.

It was the best decision we made. He had spent his first 3 years in OFSTED outstanding schools which were a disaster

It sounds like the "inadequate" school is actually turning itself around and money is being pumped into it.

With schools, see past the figures and school titles and think about which school your dc feels they fit better into.

Which school they feel comfortable in.

For my money I would definitely choose the "inadequate" school.

Ds's inadequate school was inspected a couple of years later and is now judged to be Outstanding whilst other school has fallen down the ranks.

Not all schools improve though. All the o as round here are ri or sm have been pretty consistently for a number of years. One was even knocked down and 're built and renamed. It's still as poor as it ever was

As a rule of thumb the quality of the open evening is inversely proportional to the quality of the school.
The Grammar school could fill its places several times over so concentrates its efforts on its existing students.The inadequate school needs to put on an all-singing all-dancing show for prospective students.
A grammar school is basically a private school for free.It will probablu get less state funding than a secondary modern or comp because of its low numbers getting pupil premium.But it is likely to have generous parents and alumni.

**As a rule of thumb the quality of the open evening is inversely proportional to the quality of the school.
Rubbish!!!
No grammar schools around us but a couple of outstanding comps. My daughter chose the failing comp that was less popular because it was smaller. She passed all her GCSEs with As, Bs and 7&8s.
If you are involved in your child’s education and your child is motivated to do well they will. A lot of talk about secondary schools is pure snobbishness! Connections??! I want my child to do well on her own merit not because she knows someone! We need to move on from this so that ALL children receive the best education available.

A lot of sweeping statements on here which are no help to OP.

There's a massive difference in their educational opportunities though, particularly the 'enrichment' side of school life.

This is true in SOME grammar schools, but shouldn’t be applied to all. My god daughter went to a grammar school where the only extra curriculars on offer were netball, football, a concert band, two choirs, and cross country (and later a dance team). Her school trips across 7 years there were one to the small castle 5 minutes walk from the school, one to a mill in the village she lives in, and one to a media museum in the nearest city... meanwhile at my DC’s largely non selective school there are hundreds of music ensembles who go on music tours, two or three school shows every year, netball, hockey, football, rugby, cross country, dance opportunities. And the trips DS went on in his 7 years were far more exciting than those my god daughter went on (and they were in the same year group at school). He took 4 less GCSEs (11 as opposed to 15), but they got the same number of A*s.

Obviously this is just one case. But it contradicts many of the sweeping statements on here.

OP - I would visit the schools in the day and try to canvass opinions from existing parents in order to get a feel for the schools. The progress 8 scores aren’t hugely different (also don’t listen to this nonsense about grammar schools having “lower progress 8” - it’s easier to make progress if starting from a higher level because the child is more likely to be motivated to work at home and have an environment that encourages it.) so I wouldn’t focus too highly on that. Just find out more about the school’s and go with whatever you think is best for your DD! Good luck

“The offer of a place is a privilege and you'd be mad to send them to an inferior secondary school instead - they're called "secondary" for a reason, you know!“

You are joking? Please tell me you’re joking........

This is an irreverent point really, but I'd just like to say that I thank god I don't live in a Grammar area.

The way many people talk about non-grammer/comps is shocking and totally untrue.

My dd's comp sent 5 pupils to Oxbridge last year, they have 103 schools clubs and societies, numerous trips abroad, are performing Shakespeare at a well-known theatre next year, have orchestras, choirs, patronage from celebrities and businesses.

It has a negative Progress 8 score currently. Meh.