To send dd to an "inadequate" secondary school which has a nice feel and better progress 8 than the grammar

[Liz79]

Dd is in year 5 and open evenings have started. We have only been to 2 so far. The inadequate school was a much better show than the grammar school, it was calmer and better organised. Each family was allocated a pupil to be their tour guide, the staff were more articulate and willing to speak to us, last year's progress 8 was the best in the area. The % getting GCSE Maths and English was inline with the national average and better/similar to other local schools (except the grammar which got 94% compared to the England average of 43%). They are moving to a new build in 2020 which will be a 5 minute walk away. The grammar is 20 minutes by train, the evening felt chaotic, staff weren't very engaging. It has an outstanding Ofsted report, still has a +ve progress 8 but lower than the inadequate one. There are still a couple of others to see as well. I am also shocked by how many GCSEs kids have to do: English language and literature, maths, double or triple science, ICT, RE... that's 7/8 before you've made a choice. Aaarrrgghh it's all too hard.

Phillipa12 That’s exactly it.
The grammar fits DS, he wanted to go and his school had a lovely traditional feel to it where as DD is much less academic and if I had tried to push her into this she would be unhappy, may have struggled and been unhappy.

The Inadequate school might have a + P8 because the intake is below average academically.
But that's the whole point of P8 and why it is so useful. In a not very good school the below average intake would remain on the same low trajectory. In a good school that is teaching the children well children coming in with low grades will improve and make better than expected progress, leading to a higher P8.
And there's no reason why a grammar shouldn't have a positive p8 too..m unless their teaching isn't great and they're relying on bright kids with involved parents to get through rather than providing good input themselves.

The Progress 8 is misleading because the schools are starting from a different baseline - the grammar only takes the top 20% of pupils, say, so it's harder for them to exceed expectations.

Go on a tour round both schools in a normal day. Do you know anyone already at either school? Talk to them.

The inadequate school was a much better show than the grammar school

The key word here is “show”.

'Grammar schools don't just prepare for exams they prepare for life ' 'what a horrible elitist attitude. So mixing with the less well off and less privileged doesn't prepare you for life? The non privileged school could produce a much more rounded individual.

Progress 8 is a con. Schools with brighter or more advanced kids from the start get lower scores but often have higher ‘real’ attainment than schools with higher scores. A high score means the school probably focusses on low / average ability pupils and may not be suitable for high ability students.

Up to you but in your position I’d pick the grammar obviously.

"Go with your gut instinct. It’s usually right!"
Please don't. Go with facts,figures and real life current information from other parents, pupils and teachers.

If she goes to the grammar and doesn’t like it she will be able to change.
If she goes to the non grammar it will be far harder for her to get in there if she does like it

"A high score means the school probably focusses on low / average ability pupils and may not be suitable for high ability students"
Absolutely not true.

You understand that the progress is less in a grammar because they start so far up hey have very little to progress to ?

So mixing with the less well off and less privileged doesn't prepare you for life? The non privileged school could produce a much more rounded individual.

^^ usual erroneous perception of a grammar school yet again from someone who has no recent experience of one apart from her own prejudices gleaned from left wing politics Our local grammar schools are roughly a third minority students, usually migrant West Africans or 2nd generation Indians.

Do tell me where your perception of privilege comes from in this scenario?

I second a PP. ask for tours during a normal school day. Any school with nothing to hide won't have a problem with that and you'll be able to see through the 'show'.

How recent are the Ofsted reports?

I don't think it's true that grammars can't show good progress. Our local super-selective grammar has progress of 1.21, which is 'well above average'. However, in this instance, 0.1 and 0.32 are effectively the same number. The confidence interval for these scores is probably sufficiently high that you can't adequately distinguish between them.

"Do tell me where your perception of privilege comes from in this scenario?"
Well, generally from the well sourced and accurate figure for grammmar schools PP intake. You appear to be confusing ethnic minority with disadvantage.

PS, look on the DfE performance tables. You can look at scores for particular groups of pupils. I assume your daughter is a high attainer if you think grammar is a realistic prospect and you should look at how well this group of pupils does in comparison to others.

It's important to remember- (I realise that this is an education wonk's point)- that you get more for pushing an A to an A* than from pushing a D to a C.

I keep saying that as well Bertrand but most are not listening!!

Progress 8 is a con. Schools with brighter or more advanced kids from the start get lower scores but often have higher ‘real’ attainment than schools with higher scores.

I'll say it again. This is why p8 is a good tool. Any school can get good results if they select the higher achieving pupils. P8 shows whether they are actually developing those pupils enough or just letting them coast. Of course grammars will get higher attainment in real terms but are the children getting as high as they could with good teaching? That's what p8 measures.

You understand that the progress is less in a grammar because they start so far up hey have very little to progress to?
And of course this is wrong too ar end part of the reason behind the new grading, so students can potentially go even further.

I wouldn't go on the show that is Open Day.The uber popular comp lots of parents bussed their kids into away from catchment in our area put on a stonking slick show and tour showing off their superior resources( gym,dance studios,ex pupils etc) in comparison to the local comp and ss grammars. Said all singing all dancing comp is now RI.

Our local comp and ss grammars have shittier buildings and as regards the ss a lot less money. I'd look at the breakdown of the Progress 8 and when said comp went into SM. Also look at behaviour which is key. Go on a tour during a normal working day with your dc and ask loads of questions.

I went to a traditional grammar (Lincolnshire) as distinct from the fake new style of grammar. There certainly weren't the networking opportunities available. Like someone said before, Eton it was not. Any networking and business contacts came via my parents.

There was bullying (single sex) and people withdrawn from exams because the school had predicted them below a B (even though a pass is a C they can't run the risk of allowing someone with a predicted C to get a D on a bad day). The other downside was that it was smaller so you could be amazing at maths but crap at English (you know, B grade level eyeroll) but you'd be in bottom set for everything. A comprehensive (at least the one near us) is better at setting so you can be top set maths, second set physics and middle set English.

You know your child. Would they struggle at the grammar? Personally I'd send my child who is fiercely academic to a grammar in a grammar area because otherwise the comprehensive/SM will not have 100% of academic breadth and you are stopping her being stretched and challenged by her peers. I don't know about any subsequent children yet because their personalities aren't clear yet.

Hear, hear Bertrand. Forget your gut for now, get more information together and think about it.
What sort of child is your dd. What sort of things does she like? What's her potential? What support does she need to learn? Is she a crowd animal or happy to plough her own furrow? What are her aspirations?
Im guessing the fact that you are considering grammer means she could get into it?

If so, then get the fine detail on the how each school deals with students of her ilk.

NewYearNewMe take a new look at the statistics.

There is a very clear divide between the privelige levels in Grammars and other schools. Even May has had to tie herself in knots making up rules and conditions to try and make the admissions for her Grammar expansion programme more equitable.

Then look at the seperate stats for attainment amongst different ethnic groups.

And maybe come back and discuss the actual issue rather than point scoring and sniping at individual posters?

OP: see more schools, too. Do you have access to a good comp? A comprehensive school outside the grammar system which takes a full range of abilities?

Also many grammars are over subscribed i.e. they don't need to put on a slick show; a school in SM needs to attract new pupils and boost its image hence the bigger likelihood of a slick show.

Bear in mind going to a grammar relies on a test. Decide on a back up plan and big it up so your dc is happy with whatever happens on results day.

They may not focua on low ability students, but it is worth looking at things like curriculum offer because for some schools they get a high P8 score by limitibg the curriculum to an offer that may not be as broadly typically academic.

E.g. one school I know of has decided that some students aren't allowed to study a humanity and must do English/Maths/Science and then a range if level 2 equivalents (because it is easier to get distinctions which get higher p8 scores for those students rather than a 5/6 in Geography). Some students who are perfectly capable of doing a humanity are being denied that opportunity so the school's P8 figure looks better.

Other places are cutting creative arts so students can do death by maths and English.

It would be wrong to suggest a certain type of school always focuses on lower ability, but it is sensible to advise looking at the curriculum schools are offering.

Bear in mind that some Grammars have a very high pressure competitive atmosphere and ethos (did you see the girls sobbing under the stress in that recent Grammar / High school programme?), some comps and high schools (especially academies) deal with behaviour with extremely rigid ‘boot camp’ regimes. Many schools if all types have great teachers, good behaviour and a nurturing atmosphere.

Look out for these things.