To send dd to an "inadequate" secondary school which has a nice feel and better progress 8 than the grammar

[Liz79]

Dd is in year 5 and open evenings have started. We have only been to 2 so far. The inadequate school was a much better show than the grammar school, it was calmer and better organised. Each family was allocated a pupil to be their tour guide, the staff were more articulate and willing to speak to us, last year's progress 8 was the best in the area. The % getting GCSE Maths and English was inline with the national average and better/similar to other local schools (except the grammar which got 94% compared to the England average of 43%). They are moving to a new build in 2020 which will be a 5 minute walk away. The grammar is 20 minutes by train, the evening felt chaotic, staff weren't very engaging. It has an outstanding Ofsted report, still has a +ve progress 8 but lower than the inadequate one. There are still a couple of others to see as well. I am also shocked by how many GCSEs kids have to do: English language and literature, maths, double or triple science, ICT, RE... that's 7/8 before you've made a choice. Aaarrrgghh it's all too hard.

What will you say to your DD when she's a bit older and wiser- in her 30s say- and she turns round and says 'why did you send me to a failing comp instead of an outstanding grammar school?'

you'd be mad to send them to an inferior secondary school instead -they're called "secondary" for a reason, you know!“

...because they come after primary school?

I meant were you joking about why they are stalled secondary schools......

20+ years ago now but I went to a secondary modern in a grammar area because I failed the test on purpose to go to school with my friends. 7 years on and I got into Oxford (despite totally missing one of my interviews) and got a first in my degree. It doesn’t have to be the condemnation everyone perceives. We had another girl go to Oxford two years after and since I believe the school has got one or two in every year - despite losing the top 20% to the grammar.

I am vehemently anti-grammar, however if I was in a grammar area I would feel a failure if I didn't at least try to send my children to the grammar. I would like to see them eradicated though, so more effort will be put into educating all children instead of the top 10% getting the best education, and the rest basically discarded.

"Grammar schools are superior to secondary schools in every way"

Oh go on then, I'll bite. Overlooking the fact that grammar schools are a type of secondary school, tell me about this superiority. My friend's dd goes to a super selective grammer and it's grim in so many ways- Id certainly not choose it above ds' comp, (both are likely to get the same grades at GCSE).

In my area there are grammar schools competing against each other so the open night ‘show’ as some of you have described it is definitely important in terms of attracting pupils.
Although there can be no guarantees of course it was highly likely that I would have passed the 11+ had I taken it, but I was adamant I didn’t want to after one of the pupils at the open day of the grammar school I would have gone to told my mum when she asked her if she liked being there that she hated it. The books on display in the English Department were beyond dull too and the Head Teachers speech seemed to go on for hours.
Thankfully mum (who had gone to the school herself) did nothing to try and change my mind. She was that one embarrassing parent at the open night who put her hand up at the end of the head teachers speech and expressed disappointment that all she seemed to consider important was top graded examination results and the need for additional money.

The local comprehensive school that I ended up going to I’m sure didn’t compare favourably to the grammar school in terms of academic results and Oxbridge admissions but it certainly didn’t do those of us who were willing to work any harm at all, and I’m sure that it prepared us better for life in the real world. Even now if the evidence of my neighbours children is anything to go by the same still applies.
I’m not entirely sure what I’d do in the OPs situation but I certainly wouldn’t be writing off the local school, there’s a lot more to education than academic results and (imho non existent ) connections arising from going to a grammar school.

Two things strike me here:

a) until your daughter has sat the 11+ all bets are off on that anyway. A lot of people think their bright children doing well at primary school are shoo-ins and they, and quite often the child's primary school teachers, get a shock (which may or may not itself point to the unreliability of the test as a method of assessment). Unless you feel very, very strongly against the grammar I'd delay this decision until you actually have one to make by putting her in for the 11+ and seeing what happens.
2) Think about the consequences if you get the decision wrong and regret it. Assuming the RI school is undersubscribed you could almost certainly move her there at the start of year 8, say. Obviously it wouldn't be ideal as she'd be the 'new kid' etc, and it isn't something you could guarantee in advance, but it would be possible. You're not going to be able to move her into the grammar - once that opportunity is gone it's gone.

Do you know anyone whose child currently goes to either school? I'd talk to them.

Also check out extra curricular activities, options at GCSE, and most importantly, as much info as possible about standards of behaviour management. A bright child can do well even when other children are not bright - but not if the whole lesson is spent trying to gain control of the class.

Regarding progress 8, to be able to compare the scores from the two schools, you need to know what the progress 8 scores are at the comprehensive for the children who start off with the same scores as those at the grammar. The comprehensive might be better (or worse) at improving scores for the lower-ability children than the higher-ability ones.

Not read the whole thread but do not judge a school on progress 8- it is a flawed measure and in 2017 gaming was allowed- so pupils could have done ECDL to boost the P8 scores. In a small school a couple pf pupils who are outliers can affect the headline figure and a school with lots of pupils with EAL will typically have a higher figure.

Ofsted seem to recognise this as they say that they won't penalise schools for doing the right thing- i.e. entering them for the right curriculum rather than a P8 one, not off rolling or re-registering them at an AP etc

A grammar will have less ability to have a high P8 than a school where pupils enter with lower attainment.

Look at attainment 8 and basics (l5 and L5)

Really? I’d be pretty shocked at a grammar school that didn’t have +ve progress 8.

How many grammar schools do you work with?

Not all grammar schools are equal.

Some are highly selective whereas in other areas at least 50% go to grammar. So taking the top 3%, top 9% or 50% is very different to begin with.

In some areas there is a surplus of places and so you don't need to pass the 11 plus- they just take the highest scoring until they have filled the places.

“Some are highly selective whereas in other areas at least 50% go to grammar.”

Really? Where are the 50% areas?

I hated our local grammar school, the open day was so dispiriting there’s was no time integrated pastoral care. When DD got in and I chose to put the local comprehensive as first choice the the grammar sent us a letter asking if we wanted to appeal. They seemed so arrogant.

Every school is different there are some good and some bad grammars and the same for every style of school. Do your research you will know your DD best,

Wow! Thanks everyone. We're aware that open evenings are very much a show and that the children there will have been hand picked. All the schools here allow you to make an appointment to go round in the day. I have started stopping parents in the street who are with a child in secondary uniform, and quizzing them 😁.

The inadequate school is Catholic, dd is baptised, she's guaranteed a place.

IF she passes 11+ she will definitely be offered a place at the grammar.

Our actual catchment school is an academy which is maybe 8 years old (been around much longer under a different name), it has had a dreadful reputation, however the latest Ofsted is good and results are ok. It is a big inner city school (small city). People are starting to speak about it positively. That is also a dead cert.

The other option is a nearby village comp. We are not in catchment but only just outside it and she goes to a feeder primary. Not guaranteed to get in but quite likely. This school has a good Ofsted

Total control - or conversation between mum and daughter in the future may go something like - 'thanks mum for sending me to that state secondary school, I got really good grades, have got some really good friends from all walks of life and now have a great career' -

In some areas there is a surplus of places and so you don't need to pass the 11 plus- they just take the highest scoring until they have filled the places.

Really where's that? I thought passmarks' were decided by the scores of all the kids doing the tests.Finally I am sure i have read something in the admissions code or such, that this is not allowed as it is setting up a child to fail.

Liz- why is the inadequate one inadequate?

Really? Where are the 50% areas?

Ripon for example. In facts some years it is more than 50%.

It's since had a section 8 visit which says it's improving but still a way to go, and points out that in 2017 everyone did ECDL and that will have positively affected progress 8. Changing the performance tables to show only high attainers or only medium attainers is very interesting.

Hmm. See this barge pole I'm holding out..?

It went from requires improvement to inadequate? That is really not a good sign. The issues on that report are not easy or quick fixes either. If you have a choice, I would avoid that one.

“Ripon for example. In facts some years it is more than 50%.”

More than 50% of 11 year o,ds in Ripon go to grammar school? I didn’t know that! How does it work?