To think this behaviour regarding Pope's visit to Ireland is despicable

[user1485342611]

The Pope is visiting Ireland in August and two public Masses will be held. For Health and Safety reasons numbers attending have to be limited so free tickets are being allocated, on line, on a first come first served basis.

People who object to his visit are deliberately buying up thousands of tickets, booking in fake coach tours etc to ensure a low turn out and, in the process, deny tickets to those who want to attend.

AIBU to think that, whatever your religious beliefs, this is petty, vindictive, intolerant and downright despicable behaviour>

And all the Church has to do is declare all tickets issued so far void, and issue another lot to be distributed in parishes. Simple.

"Don't you think that's all a bit tired"

No Bertrand. Are you saying that anyone who is a Catholic supports child abuse, humiliating unmarried mothers and being cruel to orphans?

[They condone it and are directly complicit in it. Your attitude is exactly what has led to their atrocities being perpetuated for so long. If the lay catholics opposes the horrific abuse and killings it would have ended. People knew and they kept quiet and allowed it to happen and continue to do so. So yes. They are equally as guilty. I think you need to examine your moral compass. It’s way off course.]

What killings?

And how many Catholics condoned abuse?
They didn't even know about it.

Anyhow, I see that by starting this thread I've unleashed the bitter, intolerant hordes who cannot distinguish between the establishment as it existed at the time, and the ordinary Catholics.

A bit like those who think all Germans were Nazis.

Mumsnet, any chance you would pull this thread?

Anyhow I'm out.

"No Bertrand. Are you saying that anyone who is a Catholic supports child abuse, humiliating unmarried mothers and being cruel to orphans?"
Not supports, no. But, unless they have actively spoken out against, complicit, yes.

I'm very sorry about my typo re jimmy savile - it really upsets me and I was crashing around on the keyboard and screwed up - Knighthood - not sainthood. Although if he hadn't been outed I bet they would have tried!

The babies and children in the septic tank in Ireland. Don’t you read??

Not anywhere near as nasty as what the catholic church did to the people of Ireland over the years so yeah no sympathy, hopefully it's only a matter of time before it's died out completely

Ordinary catholics did know and do know. Don’t be naive.
When you’ve worked with children who have fistulas from being raped by their priests or see mothers selling themselves to pay for their dying baby’s baptism as they still preach this claptrap about limbo and purgatory, you might have a slightly different view. And when misinformation about hiv and aids is disseminated on a massive scale in an area with pandemic levels leaving over half the population infected then have a conversation about how great the pope is. Ignorance is not an excuse.

@BertrandRussell

Bertrand, I think that’s making some very unfair assumptions.

I’m not religious in the slightest, but I was brought up in an irish catholic household in the 1980s.

When the horrors of the Magdalene laundry and the paedophilia came to light, people were shocked and horrified. The general public just didn’t know. And again with the Tuam babies - shock, disgust.

The Catholic Church wormed their way into the fabric of ROI at the very inception of the country, and established a level of trust and power that really made it essentially impossible for the average punter to even conceive of their actions.

This is not apologism for the actions of the Catholic Church - I suspect we both agree on the merits of that institution. But I feel it’s conplwtely unfair to consider normal people to be responsible for things they knew nothing about. The Irish public are victims, not perpetrators.

And in terms of speaking out: in what forum? Most Irish people I come across are disgusted at this part of their history, and discuss it at length. Is that sufficient? Or would you want that to be on a public forum? To what end?

Actually - does anyone know if protests will be allowed on the day? * Some sort of silent back turning type thing seems appropriate.

OP 'at the time'? The church still has not accepted responsibility in any meaningful way, not just in Ireland but anywhere. And yes many many 'good' Catholics knew - in particular the especially holy ones that moved those men on - the police and GPs that brought girls back to laundries - the so called good Christians that put them there in the first place, come on!

*(They were for sure not in 1979, just ask the group of women that were forcibly removed the night before JP's big moment and locked up for three days. )

"I worked in Angola with Street kids for two years. The Catholic Church preach that condoms cause aids. That you can’t get hiv if you’re married. "

Sorry but that is plain untrue. I have not worked in Angola with street kids, but I can tell you what the Catholic Church preaches is not that. I am fully ready to accept that people who self-identify as Catholics, maybe even priests for all that I know, may preach that in Angola, but they are also plain wrong if they claim that is Church teaching.

The previous pope has made some really unhelpful remarks in this context, but even that was not delivered as official teaching. Even he also acknowledged "that the need to prevent diseases like AIDS could outweigh the church’s long opposition to the use of condoms." www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/europe/24pope.html and “where the intention is to reduce the risk of infection, [condom use] can nevertheless be a first step on the way to another, more humane sexuality.” (see link at the bottom)

I rather have the impression that a whole load of people teach that bullshit in Africa, whether Christian, atheist, follower of an indigenous religion or whatever. Unfortunately being a Catholic doesn't inoculate you against being dumb or doing harm.

By contrast, see prominent Catholics within the church arguing in favour of condom use for the purposes of preventing HIV infection:

www.catholicsforchoice.org/issues_publications/the-catholic-bishops-and-condoms-statements-and-actions-supporting-condom-use-as-part-of-an-hiv-prevention-strategy/

And all the Church has to do is declare all tickets issued so far void, and issue another lot to be distributed in parishes. Simple.

No doubt they'd be a big uproar about the Catholic Church showing discrimination if this was the case though.

Not supports, no. But, unless they have actively spoken out against, complicit, yes.

Many people have spoken out against it, I don't know any Catholic person who condones what happened, everyone is horrified and disgusted.

It is possible that many Catholics did not know about the major atrocities-although many of them did know about the abuse of children in Catholic schools and children's homes. The point is that once it did become common knowledge, everyone still going along dutifully to Mass and giving money to the Church became complicit. And the church hierarchy has continually denied, excused and diminished.

"Despicable" is going a bit far. It is a political statement. The Catholic Church has had considerable power over the lives of people in Ireland, whether they have faith or not. This is perhaps a gesture where they are wielding power for a change?

What Bertand said. "Complicit".

OP, your attitude makes me so furious I could spit. It is right that the Pope's planned visit to ireland be protested.

And what a kick in the teeth this visit is, to the survivors of clerical abuse, Magdalene laundries, symphysiotomies (to ensure women's ability to reproduce, even if they couldn't walk), the eighth amendment, the x case, and the memories of Ann Lovett, Eileen Flynn, Seán & Shiela Cloney, Savita Halappanavar, victims of the marriage bar who are left with no pension in their old age, women being "churched" after childbirth, gay men & women who were criminalised, women who were not permitted to use contraception, children trafficked, starved, beaten, and these are just the scandals the made the news. Every single one is the result of religious interference.

The Catholic church still refuses to accept Children First legislation and maintains that the seal of the confessional trumps a child's right to be protected from abuse. Not the actions of an organisation committed to compassion

YABVU

Peregrane. You said yourself you haven’t worked in Angola. It is what I encountered on a daily basis for two years and is well documented. It was only the Catholic Church. Yes there were other issues with FGM but the misinformation about condoms and aids was purely from the catholics. Are you calling me and my colleagues liars?

Clearly mass attendance has utterly plummeted in Ireland. This is a good thing. In my home town there isn’t even a priest anymore. There were 3 or 4 in residence when I was a kid.

It’s still complex though. I know how odd this sounds coming from an atheist like me, but religion can be about more than worship, more than adherence to a particular faith. It’s engrained in the culture and fabric of a society, and that can be very difficult to remove whatever the facts.

For example, as a kid I HATED going to mass. Except on Christmas Eve. Because then the church looked lovely and festive. There was the Christmas story. Lovely singing. And when I got home from Christmas Eve mass there would be lovely Christmas food. Then I’d go to bed and in the morning it would be Xmas day. I still think back fondly of Christmas Eve mass in Ireland, even though I’ve left religion (and Ireland) far behind me.

At some point I’ll take my family to Ireland for Xmas. And guess what? I’ll take them to Xmas eve mass. Not because I believe a word of it, but because it’s a lovely hour whatever the content. Not for a second do I feel that makes me complicit in the awful abuses of the Catholic Church.

I worry that, when we make sweeping statements of “if you’re with them you’re against me”, we lose the complexity of situations. There’s no winner there, and it just antagonises good people.

Like I said, the Irish suffered terribly under the corrupt rule of the Catholic Church. It was in essence a sort of pseudo theocracy. I think the culture is still racing to catch up with a very new reality.

I love the idea that protesting against or showing your displeasure about unjust practices, illegal and/or imoral attitudes towards people by governments and institutions make you just as bad as the people carrying out those actions in the first place.

Fucking idiots slow handclap

Old Ireland has been under the thumb of extreme Catholic intervention for years. Abuse, rape and peado priests who destroyed so many life's were brushed under the carpet.

Times have changed, we have had mostly female presidents for the last 20 years, the gay marriage vote was a world leader. And we have an openly gay prime minster.

If the pope was to come to Ireland and apologise for the systematic abuse that went on and continues to go on around the world (the no birth control rule in parts of Africa) he might get a better reception.

They are a multi billion dollar cult. I'm sure they won't miss a few quid.
It's a peaceful protest, something I'm sure Jesus would have agreed with.

I am sure not all Catholics condone the abuse that has taken place within their church. But the level of abuse has been so sustained and so brutal that to stay part of the club is to be complicit.

It is not acceptable to turn your back and plead its nothing to do with you. By supporting the Pope and his hegemony you are supporting all the nasty things it has allowed over the years.

But the normal Catholic on the street does not condone or turn a blind eye to this.

But a significant minority that knew did. The Police, doctors and nurses, lay people in the church, politicians, teachers, parents... people knew and they didn't speak out. And yes, it is like the Germans under the Nazis. A lot of normal people were scared and socialized to believe authority and to do what they were told. It's very similar. It doesn't mean they weren't complicit.

I don't necessarily think the protest, if it's real, is a good thing. But justified? Absolutely.

Oh and those bastards ruined my mother's life as well.

All religion is bad but the Catholic Church is poison.

I think it's a bloody brilliant protest. I just wish they had spread the word a bit before so more tickets could be purchased.

The church could not have done the damage it did without the co-operation of Irish people. Parents, social workers, doctors all brought women to laundries. Teachers turned a blind eye to their abusive colleagues. Parishioners in Fethard on Sea boycotted the business of their neighbours on the orders of their priest.

And the clergy are still wading in, even now. Bishop Kevin Doran delayed the roll-out of cancer treatment to women because they would have been required to take contraception. He has no medical training but was serving on the board of a hospital. His comments on same-sex marriage are infamous.

Cardinal Sean Brady threatened to excommunicate TDs if they voted to allow the abortion referendum to take place.

Bishop Alphonsus Cullinan rowed in on the HPV vaccine issue (again, with no background in medicine) and said that "The money spent on it should be diverted to helping young people stay chaste"

So, if the clergy are going to be political, they can't complain when they're targeted by political movements.

If religion didn’t exist, good people would do good things. Bad people would do bad things.

In order to get good people to do bad things (like turn a blind eye to child abuse etc) you need religion.