To have not realised that Cuba is in the Caribbean?

[MeMyShelfandIkea]

Watching Blind Date tonight and one of the couples is on their date in Cuba. I commented to DH did he ever fancy visiting somewhere like that? He said what, the Caribbean? I said no, South America. DH then informs me that Cuba is a Caribbean island and despite showing me on the map I still can't get my head around it!

Tell me I'm not the only one whose geographical knowledge is hopeless

AllCleverAndThat
I am very very sorry that my lack of knowledge caused you to insult me.

I went on Google after my post and I understand why you felt the need to say what you did.

However, you were wrong to say that I have
real lack of understanding about racial relations.
I know quite a bit about the slave trade, through teaching mine and others children, and also the many documentaries and films I have watched. And, obviously the books I have read.

So, if for instance you knew everything there is to know about the Fibonacci sequence compared to my understanding of it, that does not make me ignorant or you a genius.

Peace

Pretty offensive to call "lest we forget " and " help for heroes " guff. Just as ignoring the slave trade in our history is offensive. It is possible to learn about both and understand their part in our history.

If you don’t know that millions of Africans were forcibly taken to the Caribbean then it is s fact that you can’t know that this colours interactions today. The last child born or a slave died in the 20th century. It’s not in the mists of time.

I was not insulting you. I was stating a fact that you are ignorant. Mathematical theorems are great but they are understood to be niche, unlike basic world history which can be acquired by being awake at school.

And that Britain and USA thus benefitted from the cotton and sugar.

And continued to benefit when Britain wanted to rebuild after WWII so the Windrush generation arrived and were generally given the jobs white people didn't want or forced people to retrain so a qualified nurse from Jamaica suddenly had to start again as a student.

Also we still benefit, I think the name 'Tate' is probably more familiar as and art gallery these days than a sugar manufacturer but next time you go to one spare a thought for the backs that broke creating the wealth that provided it.

We've got an office in Guildford and for more than 2 years I've thought it was just south of Newcastle.... Turns out I was thinking of Gateshead.

Thinking back there's been a couple of cringey phone calls over the years now where people must have been thinking "why is she talking about getting the train to Newcastle and changing there?"

Geographical ignorance can definitely lead to historical ignorance: if you think the Falklands are in Scotland or Hawaii is in the Caribbean then the Falklands conflict or Pearl Harbour won’t make much sense.

And yes you’re going to have a limited understanding of the transatlantic slave trade (which is a huge century-spanning global crime, with massive implications to this day) if you don’t know that the Caribbean is on the opposite side of the Atlantic to Africa. To be fair to that poster presumably she knew where the USA was, so had a broad understanding of the triangular slave trade: what she’ll have missed is the UK dimension, especially between 1776 and 1807/1833.

Tate started business in 1859. I’m sure that his employees had a very tough life and weren’t paid minimum wage, but they weren’t slaves. Seriously, if that business was the product of slavery then the galleries and libraries would have changed their names thirty years ago.

If it makes you feel a bit better, OP, someone I know slightly told dh that she was off to a very well known Greek island for her holiday. Having said that, she asked him if it was in the Canaries! And she's not at all the sort of person I'd have expected to be clueless.

Not having the depth of knowledge in one subject doesn't make someone ignorant.

Of course it doesn't but there is a general trend in the UK to celebrate the ignorant. People like Jade Goody and Joey Essex have made a career out of it. People are "celebrities" not because they're clever or experts in their field, but because they have sharpied-on eyebrows, fake tits and sleep with footballers or some other randomer on telly. On the other hand, the people who go on series like University Challenge get slated on social media for being all kinds of weird.

Also totally agree that if you think Hawaii is in the Caribbean that Pearl Harbor makes no sense, but then that also hinges on that person having heard of Pearl Harbor, knowing what it was, knowing that it involved Japan, and knowing where Japan is.

We are living in an age where we have more access to information than ever before - you don't need to do to the library and get a book out any more because all the information you could ever want is on the internet, or on the thousands of high quality documentaries you can stream.

started business in 1859. I’m sure that his employees had a very tough life and weren’t paid minimum wage, but they weren’t slaves.

The workers in England were not slaves but they were not the ones cutting sugar cane in the Caribbean.

Or did you think he used local sugar?

Tate’s plantations were in the British Empire. Slavery was abolished in 1833.

It’s more complex that of course that because they weren’t his plantations. There’s an argument that because the infrastructure that was built up to produce sugar was built on slavery that Tate’s refineries many years later still benefitted, but it’s so remote that you can reasonably make the same argument about the whole economic infrastructure of the UK.

Slavery was abolished, indentured servitude wasn't. Also slavery was not abolished everywhere in the British Empire, in 1843 most slavery was banned but it carried on in at least one place into the 20th century.

After the 'abolition' former slaves still had to work for nothing for 6 years.

Then after abolition, where were people supposed to find work?

Slavery falls under "nasty things the British Empire did but we don't want to admit to as that doesn't fit with our notion of being British means being the best morally and in practice".

Also see Boer War, British in Indian, transportation of criminals, any other British colony.

There are huge amounts of ugliness.

Our British ideology is all about how Empire made these places better than they were originally, civilising them and improving things for 'the uneducated natives' or 'giving the undeserving poor an opportunity'. Which is quite some bullshit.

What the subjects and possessions of the British Empire had to endure in terms of things which were against just about every human right law today is horrendous.

It is all part of why so many British don't value human rights as much as they should. They are superior to them and think they have no need for them.

Even those who think they support human rights often have surprisingly poor knowledge about human rights were created. And the why is fundamental to their continued existence. We are seeing attempts to ape human rights in new areas which don't fit with the principles of why human rights exist : to protect the most vulnerable and the voiceless, those who are seen as unworthy and worthless in society, by various groups who do have voice and political influence.

I have in my family the story of my great great great grandfather.

He was a solider in the army in Indian around 1856. During the Indian rebellion there were many massacres and atrocities that were carried out by both sides. The Indians were punished heavily for it, but few British soldiers were held to account for their barbarity. My great great great grandfather was an exception. He was court martialed after murdering an Indian just outside Cawnpore just after the siege and subsequent massacre there and was found guilty.

He was sent to Portsmouth and put in prison there. At the time many prisoners were held in prison ships as they could no longer transport to America or Australia and we didn't have enough prisons on shore (a third of prisoners died in the conditions on board. They were often there for petty theft they had committed in order to survive), but he didn't stay on board one long.

He was given prefential treatment by the governor who took him on land and put to work for him personally in his quarters decorating.

The governor viewed him as a miscarriage of justice and supported an appeal for his pardon by the king. He won, and was released. He later married and had a daughter... Who I am descended from.

I can not find details of the murder he committed. If they still exist they will be in regimental records, which are difficult to access. I guess the circumstances must have been pretty brutal for him to be court martialed when so many weren't. His prison records do record the name of the Indian he killed, which is something at least. I will follow it up the story one day.

The story that was handed down within the family was he had been a hero during the Crimean War. The reality we found was altogether different.

Justice of the past was far from equal. It remains the case. And the stories we tell ourselves are often very different to what happened.

I don't think you need to know everything about slavery nor the British in Indian etc. Just a few human stories suffice to get the general idea.

(Before you think everyone in my family is a murderer, DH's family are responsible to the other one!)

Tate didn't have sugar plantations. He made his money from sugar refineries so people are happy to say he didn't make his money on the slave trade. But in 1860 Cuba produced a third of the world's sugar and Brazil also a large percentage. Unless he got all his sugar from only British sources (unlikely) then his sugar, like everyone else at that time, probably came from slave plantations. Because both Cuba and Brazil abolished slavery in the 1880's.
Yes you can make the same argument about the whole economic structure of the UK. Accepting and facing facts will never heal the damage but it's better than trying to sugar coat it - pun not intended!

My work colleague who went to an expensive public school didn't know where Jersey was. Don't worry OP.