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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Cultural appropriation

999 replies

Londonerlove · 23/06/2018 17:32

AIBU to be totally annoyed by cultural appropriation.
I read this today and though wtf!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-44572555

I’m not a fan of kim but if she wants her hair in braids she can have her hair in braids?

Shouldn’t this be praised rather than attacked?
Is eating pasta cultural appropriation?

OP posts:
Ohmydayslove · 26/06/2018 14:01

Bertrand

I don’t think that’s necessarily so. I think you are taking a very pessimistic view there but you are obviously entitled to it.

iso am sure you looked great. My natural skin tone is very dark so I felt very comfy in a sari. Grin

Ohmydayslove · 26/06/2018 14:04

Sorry Asa not iso Grin

Ah well I have just seen a girl in leggings and a hoodie!!!! I can’t imagine! How are coukd bare it.

MariaMadita · 26/06/2018 14:05

AsA

I agree, the many layers are hot.

I think it depends on the colours... My aunt did not want to get married in red or very deep colours. But the lighter (still bright) colours suited her really well :)

Buttonlamp · 26/06/2018 14:07

As far as I understand it, here's how you tell if a thing is cultural appropriation:

  1. Are you from a dominant culture?
  2. Are you using something from another culture?
  3. Will your experience of using it be very different to that of the people whose culture that thing originated from? (i.e. will it be easier for you, because you are of the dominant culture?)
  4. Are you or another person from your dominant culture profiting from you acquiring this thing?
  5. Would there be a better way to go about this thing?

Two of the 'easier' things to deal with are dreds/locs and yoga. I'm white, so say I wanted dredlocks, let's go through that list:

  1. Yes, I am.
  2. Yes, despite allegedly having Viking heritage (who doesn't - those guys were prolific!), dreds are not significant to my culture in the way that they are to black culture.
  3. Yes. People might think me 'cool' or they might think I smell BUT how I wear my hair is not closely linked to my culture. Locs, for me, do not represent freedom and identity. Plenty of people for whom this is the case, get told to cut their hair because it looks dirty, unprofessional or, 'Like they smell of weed'. (Nice!) Fewer - far fewer - people will assume this about me and my dreds. Also, I am not, repeat NOT going to have a deeper understanding of the oppression suffered by this other culture, because of my dreds.
  4. Depends who did my hair, I guess.
  5. Yes, I could pick a different hairdo.

Yoga's even easier: are you a white person running a yoga course, thus profiting from something that's not your culture? Are you and your group saying, 'Namaste,' like doing so makes you cool and woke? The easiest way around this is to say, 'I go to a yoga-based exercise class.' Obviously, if you want to get into proper yoga and you consult someone from the relevant culture, who's up for teaching you, then go right ahead - it's just this middle ground of, 'Oh, I do yoga, Namaste!' which is problematic because, really, you're doing a class of stretching and relaxation exercises.

Eating poppadum is not an act of cultural appropriation, unless you sell them and undercut the person running a restaurant selling them. Obviously if you bang on about eating them because you want everyone to know how 'woke' you are, well you're just a bit of a tit. You probably also say, 'Namaste,' a lot to the white people who buy your poppadum.

If you are a white person with dreds or you do yoga, I do not judge you. I'm just saying that's how I decide if a thing is OK for me or will simply make me look like an offensive tit.

Gilead · 26/06/2018 14:09

Button Star Flowers

Londonerlove · 26/06/2018 14:11

Nice see the posts have become more light hearted. Except for @gilead & @bert still holding on to all that anger. Chill a bit guys. Maybe have a bit of what @mummy had for lunch. Might make you feel better. Whoops was that offensive, I just know anymore.

OP posts:
AsAProfessionalFekko · 26/06/2018 14:23

People do get tied up in the whole ‘dominant culture’ as if it’s top trumps.

When I saw a photo of Beyoncé wearing a mahoosive native Indian headdress I didn’t know what to think! Was it ok, was not not ok? Who was ‘more oppressed’, can one ‘oppressed group’ oppress another?

Maybe we need to consider intent rather than just blanket condemn it. I was at a wedding where the ME groom wore traditional Indian clothes for the service.

His mum was really amused (he hadn’t told anyone and changed mid services) but no one tutted or was offended.

Gilead · 26/06/2018 14:27

Yeah, it really was offensive actually London. You know nothing about my life and whilst I can laugh at mummy and her musings on sex for lunch I don't appreciate being told I need a shag. My ex did that, there's a name for it and it includes cPTSD so fuck right off, regular puking (Which is what I did when I saw what you'd written). Nightmares. An inability to sleep in what used to be my bedroom, or for that matter even my bed. So keep you stupid trite comments to yourself because you have no fucking clue about the lives of others.

downthestrada · 26/06/2018 14:27

Asa I don't think it's ok for Beyonce to wear a native headdress. Like I don't think it's ok for anyone to do it for fancy dress. It is up to them to decide, of course, but it would change my opinion of a person who did it.

Regarding cultural appropriation, I don't think it has to be any one dominant culture that always does it. I am mixed race and I definitely think I could appropriate with certain things.

downthestrada · 26/06/2018 14:30

No one here is arguing that learning about someone else’s culture or religion is offensive - quite the opposite in fact. It’s vital we all educate ourselves and integrate.

The issues arise when people use a culture (of an oppressed people) flippanty or for fashion without knowing anything of that culture. People who will happily call Arabs terrorists, but then get a tattoo in Arabic.

It’s nuanced, but it really isn’t THAT hard to understand.

THIS

AsAProfessionalFekko · 26/06/2018 14:33

I still snigger when I think of the girl I saw with arabic tattoo on the back of her neck. It said ‘donkey’ and I don’t think that’s what she must’ve wanted (it’s an insult).

BertrandRussell · 26/06/2018 14:34

"Bertrand

I don’t think that’s necessarily so. I think you are taking a very pessimistic view"
It's not pessimistic-it's just fact. If you have a "thing" that you say or do or wear that identifies you as a member of a culture or a faith or a race, and people who aren't members of that culture or faith or race start saying, doing or wearing It, then it obviously becomes meaningless.

Telling people they need a shag is a pretty unpleasant thing to say. Particularly if you have recently been accusing them of racism and spreading hate

AsAProfessionalFekko · 26/06/2018 14:36

I’m scottish and we are dominant to... well no one really. I see a lot of tourists swathes in tartan or wearing ‘Celtic jewellery’ or with ‘Celtic tartoos’.

I only get offended by that dumb comic who used to wear a ‘seee yeee jummy’ bunnet with the orange wig and do a pisstake of a Glaswegian accent. Prat.

Londonerlove · 26/06/2018 14:41

@gilead but yet a black person cant be racist? You have a very skewed view.

OP posts:
Londonerlove · 26/06/2018 14:42

@gilead I feel the same way when I read your posts.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/06/2018 14:49

"@gilead I feel the same way when I read your posts"

Fuck me, that's an outrageous response to gilead's post. I don't think I have ever come across such a crass and insensitive poster. I am beginning to think she must be taking the piss. "I wonder how unpleasant I can be and get away with it?"

downthestrada · 26/06/2018 14:50

Asa I'm Scottish and mixed race, so not dominant but I agree about pisstakes and see you jimmy hats. But, I don't think Scottish people are so oppressed currently. I certainly don't feel it. But, the mixed race side of me, if you like, has issues with how I wear my hair and racism to do with the colour of my skin.

Maybe that's the difference in how I feel between someone wearing tartan, to someone flippantly appropriating some clothing. Generally, people are not bothered about seeing a Scottish person wearing some tartan - wouldn't even cross people's minds. But, someone walking down the street with a headscarf or some other cultural clothing and people think they should be integrating more.

LeahJack · 26/06/2018 14:51

But you’re shouting ‘it’s nuanced, it’s nuanced’ whilst ignoring that there is plenty of nuance to the argument against it.

Bertrand made a sarky little précis above which was clearly (like those repeatedly shouting about nuance) intended to imply people arguing against this are thick.

Actually there are plenty of people a lot brighter than anybody on this forum who are arguing it’s a destructive theory and are arguing almost exactly what Bertrand posted without the sarcasm. If you have a look at the Ted Cantle report I posted earlier on here he argues for Interculturalism which is the engagement of different cultures and sharing of cultural traits amongst them so influence crosses is all directions from the dominant to the minority and back again. Even UNESCO has advocated those theories.

All of the people who advocate Interculturalism are interested in producing harmonious communities where people live alongside each other happily. It’s not about integration, because part of the point of this sharing is that there is increased understanding of difference so difference can remain without conflict.

The difference is people who advocate for CA are not the activists who are working towards harmonious diverse communities. They are the people who ascribe to us and them, we are different, stay apart, retribution based philosophies.

It’s a nasty little philosophy.

BertrandRussell · 26/06/2018 14:54

I honestly didn't mean to be snarky. Or shout. Which of my posts did you think was snarky? Happy to apologise for it.

LeahJack · 26/06/2018 14:59

The one where you summed up what you thought people disagreeing with you were saying.

Londonerlove · 26/06/2018 15:00

@bert honestly, after @gilead made the comment about white/black bitch I would rather pretend that humans like that don’t exist in this world. I find her vile.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/06/2018 15:01

The problem with interculturalism is that to my mind, it can look very like assimilation. Why should a minority culture have to share everything that makes them distinctive and gives them identity? Or which links them as a faith group?

mozzybites · 26/06/2018 15:02

downthestrada There has been of course a significant history of theScots being oppressed for wearing their cultural dress and using their native language. Does this mean that CA is an issue when there is current oppression but not historical issues. This leads to issues of how historical does the oppression have to be. I have no issue with anyone wearing tartan I know other Scot's who do, I don't think either group should be able to speak for the whole culture or insist their view takes precedence.

BertrandRussell · 26/06/2018 15:03

What, her perfectly factual statement that you chose to misinterpret?

downthestrada · 26/06/2018 15:05

I think most of the people on here who are saying that cultural appropriation is a problem are saying that people can wear and do what they like, but it would be nice if they knew more about the things that they are wearing or doing. so, learning more is great. Tagging things appropriately rather than #vintage would also be nice.

But, many many people are not interested and can't be bothered learning or investigating things. They don't see the point and it doesn't affect them, so they have the ability to carry on as normal. It's harder to get to that harmonious diverse community, in this situation. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should people of a culture, be going about trying to educate everyone? The problem with this is they are often told they are aggressive and causing problems.