Cultural appropriation

[Londonerlove]

AIBU to be totally annoyed by cultural appropriation.
I read this today and though wtf!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-44572555

I’m not a fan of kim but if she wants her hair in braids she can have her hair in braids?

Shouldn’t this be praised rather than attacked?
Is eating pasta cultural appropriation?

Like I said you better know a tacos heritage otherwise you might be accused of cultural appropriation.

@may why only white people. So it can’t happen the other way round?

No it's can't, for the last time, because white people are not oppressed for wearing clothes from their culture e.g. jeans. People who are not Scottish who wear a kilt don't go around calling it 'vintage' and 'Welsh vibes' over social media do they? Because they know the background of the garment and they are not disrespecting the culture. Yet when it's the other way around, white people apparently don't have to know anything about it and can do as they please.

OP I wasn't making any point about the hijab. I just asked why on earth another poster would bring it up in conversation when it's irrelevant to cultural appropriation. Nobody said that you're not allowed to wear a cultural garment. I said that you should have the respect for that culture to find out where it's from, the name of it and what it actually is.

I can assure you that European Jews where I come from face awful racism still today, because of their appearance combined with historic antisemitism.

How come the English getting pissed on St Patricks day isn't cultural appropriation.

The Irish were very badly oppressed by the English and sometimes use as slaves.

@tacolover actually in one of your last posts you weren’t very impressed with other people wearing certain garments and you were offended by it.

White people can come from oppressed backgrounds. The sooner you understand the sooner you’ll let go of your prejudices.

@tacolover as others have mentioned, Jews are the perfect example.

why only white people. So it can’t happen the other way round?

I can't think of much that is culturally significant to white people specifically that is taboo for white people to wear, that's why. Although someone upthread mentioned wearing a cross as a fashion item, so although not white specific by any means would still be religious/cultural appropriation.

It can also happen across (white) class divides. Taking large gold hoops, shellsuits etc and making them high fashion items, when WC people are deemed 'chavs' for wearing the same. It's ultimately not about colour, but about who is oppressed.

@may how about long flowing sleeves which are now fashionable. Previously worn by privileged white upper class, especially in the monarchy, hundreds of years ago.

That may have been a terrible example though.

Disco, I kind of think it is! Because a lot of British people think they know that St Patrick's day is a piss up. They think they KNOW that.

Back in Ireland it's more of a community thing, towns having a parade of their businesses and all the activities the children are involved in. Yes there is drinking involved but I don't drink on St Patrick's day. I went to a gym last St Patrick's day! Some people drink, some people don't. But the organised events on st Patrick's day are parades, so it does rankle a bit when British people might say something like ''ah it's a bit piss up''. Missing the bigger picture there and murdering an already exhausted stereotype.

@disco, it is. That’s why I don’t do it

taco

If you are told your cultural clothing IS innapropruate by whom and in what context? If it was at work and your company has no rules regarding dress then complain. Don’t make it a race to the bottom to drag other women down too.

Why should people know it care what their garnets original culture was about! As long as the people working in the factories are not exploited why do women need to research bloody clothes or hair styles.

This reminds me of the trans echo chamber chatter and nothing to do with sensible debate about racism or sexism.

The frequent mention of the Kardashian’s family only serve to prove how ridiculous the whole debate is and how social media driven.

So what if Kim thought her braids were one thing and they were another! Ffs she’s as nutty as squirrel poo anyway.

Christ have we all now got to research every bastard thing we find in a charity shop or vintage shop now Incase we offend some whack job on Twitter.

My mum tells a story as a 16 year old in a san with TB. Her mum had brought her a paisley dressing gown and some middle aged Scottish bully bitch made her cry by screaming st her thst she had no right to wear it as she was English.

Nasty judgmental and wrong.

Kim K is certainly wearing those braids better than when my mother put my hair (which she had also bleached blonde) in a similar style in the mid-'90s. I think it's kinda sweet that her daughter had input on her look.

I'm mixed race, what other people perceive me as varies wildly. I haven't particularly let that alter what I or my kids wear or how we do things. People will make assumptions no matter what I do. I think we can help vulnerable communities protect important cultures without hunting out people. I think far more damage is done by corporations than how a random person wears their hair.

I do think there needs to be recogniztion that most types of hair don't lock. It isn't along racial lines always but some hair types lock and some don't, the 'dreadlocks' many have are matts, not 'locks. I think it might be easier for people to care and discuss things if they knew how hair and such worked. I wouldn't correct a stranger on it but if one of my kids tried it I'd have to tell them that their hair isn't going to do that.

I'm not sure if it's cultural appropriation or not, but the trend which I've seen in this thread among Brits to always use American stuff to prove racism really annoys me as an American who has lived quite a while in the UK. It does kinda feel like they're taking our pain and issues to hide their own. Britain has it's own race problems - one example - the proportion of Black people in jail here is higher than the US. I remember a few years back when the BBC ran a 'True History' thing for kids and everyone in it was White British, except two Black American women which were the only mentions of race and racism in the whole thing. There is civil rights activism in the UK, past and present, which is very much ignored in favour of pointing the finger abroad and it's very noticeable whenever race comes up or in any educational literature on the topic. If we want to wonder why people don't see it, part of it is because Brits are so gleefully happy to point the finger at the US, Australia, and so many other places and discuss that, past and present, but handwaves it and the efforts that have been made to reduce it here, neither of which help anything.

Picking up the jeans thing... white people were oppressed wearing jeans for many years... down mines, on railways etc, then they became a fashion item. You can still see restrictions against jeans these days "e.g. No jeans allowed" in restaurants etc and this is historic not just a matter of dress code. Now jeans are mainstream because other cultures embraced it too and that's fine but maybe I've just found something for me to go off and be offended about...

I saw a different article a while back where a girl went to her prom in a traditional Chinese dress. It went viral as she was accused of cultural appropriation. I was mortified for this girl.

My dd has a beautiful, handmade chinese dress from china. Her music teacher is chinese and he brought it back from a visit home.

She loves it. Should she not be allowed to wear it?

What about tourist stuff like mexican hats and blankets or african carvings? If we aren’t allowed to appropriate that sort of stuff what will it do to those regions tourist industries?

I personally don't believe that cultural appropriation (in the way the term seems to be generally used) is a problem or problematic.

I do however feel that artists and of companies commercialising other culture's traditions, crafts etc can be an issue. Especially when those cultures of people from those cultures did not have the opportunity to do the same.

One example is e.g. music (imo). Elvis Presley etc...

mayandjuniper I live in a working class area that has recently become gentrified in a hipster sort of way.
I am working class. I moved here 20 years ago because I was priced out of my home borough.

It has recently become popular to run bingo and gin night clubs.
Hilariously women will dress in head scarves and play bingo and drink lots of gin (hipster gin obviously).
This was enough but they have just started holding these nights in an actual, functioning working mans club.
They call it Phoenix Nights.

Fucking hilarious.

how about long flowing sleeves which are now fashionable. Previously worn by privileged white upper class, especially in the monarchy, hundreds of years ago

Yes, terrible example, as not specifically a white thing but anyway, let's pretend they are for a second...

It still wouldn't be cultural appropriation because the original wearers were not oppressed for wearing them. They were revered. And they are popular now (made so largely by white people) not for their cultural significance, but simply because it's a fashion thing- people think they look good. It is white culture that has decided they are just a fashion thing, so POC also wearing them as a fashion thing is no issue.

Anyway all irrelevant because they're just sleeves and loads of different sleeve styles have been worn by people all over the world. They are not a prevelant part of white British culture at all.

Ohmydays
This reminds me of the trans echo chamber chatter and nothing to do with sensible debate about racism or sexism.
Agreed.

TheFirst

I'm unfortunately too ignorant/don't know enough to understand the issue.

Is it the activity (bingo and gin) you object to?

Gentrification in general?

The wearing of headscarves?

The fact that they have their night in a working man's pub?

The fact that they're calling it PhoenixNight? (Which may have some uncomfortable implications about coming from the 'ashes')?

Most people have been polite on this thread through discussion... I'm not sure where people haven't been sensible. This is about discussing while taking in everyone's point of view.

Its black people who get didgy about it, not white ones. Not overtly anyway

Having lived in an area of london which is 70% african/carribean ethnicity, i don’t think many white people realise the cultural importance attached to afro hair.

It is a big deal. Hours and hours in hairdressers. Daily oil and various treatments. The issues around getting it wet- when i did my swim teachers course it was mentioned that braided afro hair can tighten in the water and be very painful. Not something a white person, braided or not, would ever have to think about. Many of the parents wouldn’t swim because of the effect on their hair.

It seemd to be something to bond over- tips and advice, hairdresser visits, many many discussions over hair.

Gabby Douglas, the 2012 olympic gymnastics champion, and first ever non-white person to do so, got an incredible amount of abuse for her hair. She had it in a simple pony, exactly the same as her white team mates. You’d have thought she was the queen turning up for the royal wedding in her gardening gear they way she’d let her standards down.

So i can see why black and mixed race people can be precious about hair. A white person wearing braids is not the same experience as theirs.

mari I think the basics are that a bunch of affluent women are ripping the piss out of working class women and they are doing it in a place where those women have been going for a quite drink for decades.

How funny it is to slum it for an evening. Dressing down and playing bingo amid sticky tables and whirly carpets.
And naming it after a fictional northern working man's club known for its comical chaviness.

micah
I don't disagree with anything you have said but that isn't the question I asked.
You took that sentence out of context.

I can't think of much that is culturally significant to white people specifically that is taboo for white people to wear, that's why.

Neither can I. but using (and commercialising) unfortunate stereotypes is imo similar / comparable.

Irish people are cheerful drunkards.

Italians are violent and criminals etc... When there have been incidents of Italians being discriminated against and even murdered / lynched because of this stereotype, e.g. (which was luckily a long time ago.)

I’d love to know how many women here complaining that cultural appropriation is petty are white and have never experienced racism? I find the assertion that you can dictate what people who do experience racism should or shouldn’t find offensive absolutely astounding