...to remind people about today's march against Brexit

[twofingerstoEverything]

...starting at 12 o clock from Pall Mall.

(Piccadilly, Green Park and Charing Cross station are the nearest tubes.)

If you are from the industrial north Jacques you should understand the reasons people voted out. You sheer frustration people have for the ruling classes and the need to give them a kick in the bollocks for having been ignored and reviled for decades

All Leavers didn’t vote for the same reason. They’re not a homogenous mass. The more vocal ones where I am (and the 3 I know personally) all voted on race issues.

It’s totally disingenuous to suggest that there is only one reason for voting.

I’m really interested to how the “working class” are intending to be unaffected by the loss of industry

And as for people who are ‘uneducated’ voting leave, call me naive but in the UK not one single person should be described as such. If they are uneducated we as a society only have ourselves to blame when they can’t understand the complexities and the repercussions for voting out.

If have never and would never describe the working-class north as a homogeneous mass. I am in my fifth decade and have always (apart from a couple of years in London) lived in the north and know the people there well enough to realise they are not all the same

You sheer frustration people have for the ruling classes and the need to give them a kick in the bollocks for having been ignored and reviled for decades

It's Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Conservative Party which are pro-Brexit. The same Conservative party that destroyed the mining industry. The same Conservative party that has failed to invest in the North.

They don't give a fuck about the North.

If you are from the industrial north Jacques you should understand the reasons people voted out. You sheer frustration people have for the ruling classes and the need to give them a kick in the bollocks for having been ignored and reviled for decades

Maybe that was poorly worded then? Because you’re that is the reason people voted leave. So you actually mean it might be the reason some people voted leave

tell us how leaving euratom and the knock on affect for cancer treatment will benefit the wc.

I mean, I know the ‘comfortably off’ southern Brexit crowd might be able to get elsewhere but tell us how the wc are going to benefit?

I’m really interested.

Perhaps leavers could get in a ring and chant ‘sovereignty/independance’ at anyone with cancer. That might work.

Yes I did march with the miners.

I agree totally about the working classes being fucked over in the U.K..
However, Brexit won't help in fact it will in all probability make it worse. Do you really think, the right wing of the Tory party want Brexit to support the working class?

You may be a reasonable, lovely, thoughtful individual but look around the Brexit bus, it is full of racists and the worst of the Tory right. Not company I'd want.

I agree that Boris Johnson and his ilk haven’t given a shiny shit about the north. They then play on people’s fears to get them to vote out. He and Farage are fucking evil.

where did you march moose? Did you send food packages? What do you think about Schumacher’s small is beautiful theory? He was after all the NUM’s finance office.

Cities like Leeds, Manchester and Newcastle voted to Remain.

Maybe that was the student influence?

The outskirts of these cities were different. And smaller towns over the North had varied results.

Within many parts of the North, the results were still relatively close.

It was only Boston which had about 72% to Leave which was the most extreme.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

They then play on people’s fears to get them to vote out. He and Farage are fucking evil

And they were the Brexit cheerleaders.

There is no way that Europe would become a 'superstate' in a 'governed' sense. The peoples of all 28 countries don't even fully agree with their own governments, let alone Brussels. The aspirations of the EU parliament are to provide, as far as possible a decent life for all in the EU which if you consider the state of the economies of all the members is a pretty tough call. Do you think Germans LIKE paying tax which goes to a little village in Wales or Cornwall? The EU is a 'club' of people with roughly similar culture, European. Different from Chinese, Russian, American and definitely ISIS. If ISIS and other terrorist groups weren't so active in Africa, Europe would not be seeing all the immigrants. They want security and jobs, they would mostly prefer to stay in their own countries with their families but the brutal war going on TODAY is making that impossible. YOU might want to leave your country if there was the likelihood of your child having it's hand chopped off for stealing some fruit or other petty 'crime'. As you fly to your holiday over some of these war zones, consider that 5 miles below you parents are having to go out and find bits of their child that accidentally picked up a grenade.
If more people in Britain bothered to actually LOOK and THINK they might realise that although a bit clumsy and with some difficulties the EU is doing a pretty decent job.

I don't want to get into a who is the most working class competition but.....

I marched in Durham - I still go to the Gala when I can. I'm a long term trade unionist, not just talk: a member and an activist at branch and regional level.

I've considered the left for leave argument and then I look around that Brexit bus with Johnson, Farage et al. I'm not joining that bunch of fascists and racists.

54432go If that’s directed at me I have not mentioned immigration, not would I because I would happily live in a world without borders.

It's not pointless to protest at all - in fact it's the only way that people can show their dismay at how Brexit is being handled. I have no faith in this government, no faith in Theresa May's judgement, no faith that they can achieve an even half-decent Brexit. We don't hold all the cards that Brexiteers think we do and the further we get into this sorry mess the clearer it becomes that either we have soft Brexit or we crash out with no deal, which would be a fucking disaster FOR US. It won't be a fucking disaster for Europe, it will be for us on this little island on our own, cut off from our suppliers, the market for our goods, and the places we like to go on holiday and anyone who thinks different is delusional. There is no golden future for us outside Europe. It's a lie.

A Survation poll this week showed that two years on from the Brexit vote people have changed their minds and a majority now want to remain survation.com/brexit-vote-two-years-on-survation-for-good-morning-britain/. So is it democratic to ignore that? To not challenge this vote that was, among other things, a knee-jerk reaction to the migrant crisis of 2015? If there hadn't been all those photos in the press in the year leading up to referendum of thousands of migrants flooding on foot into Europe would we have got Brexit? I don't think so.

And anyone who thinks that under-investment in the north is going to be solved by leaving the EU is a moron. Without Europe businesses here will close and the poor areas will get poorer. Extra money for the NHS? That was a lie and Michael Gove admitted it as soon Leave won. The govt is taking extra money from schools, defence and all kinds of other stuff to prop up the NHS - do you really think they're suddenly going to have extra money to regenerate former industrial cities in the north because we leave the EU? Free courses in history and economics for all those who voted for Brexit in order to 'make Britain great again' are needed.

Moouse if that’s true then you of all people should understand why the left (and I mean the true left not the ‘socialists’ you get on mumsnet) had doubts about the EU. I went through exactly the same thought process and concluded I wasn’t hitching my wagon to Johnson and Farage. I hate how the working class ‘uneducated’ are being blamed for Brexit and if you are a trade unionist so should you.

Do you think Germans LIKE paying tax which goes to a little village in Wales or Cornwall

Probably as much as some wealthy people in London like paying taxes that go to the poorer parts of the UK....

Same arguments but on a different scale.

And the same arguments that Brexiteers used to say we should leave the EU are used by people who want to separate the UK into different parts - and then the same prominent people who want us to leave the EU then use the arguments that Remainers use to say the UK should stick together - Better Together and all that.

It's cognitive dissonance.

As for the golden future being a lie, not everybody in the UK has had a golden past either

Helmet - I am not buying into the whole Airbus / Siemens leaving thing (which I know you will find very frustrating). It’s not what they have said anyway.

The timing of this is too convenient/funding very questionable where Airbus are concerned (illegal EU subsidies giving the company an advantage over Boeing) and the other company being German owned. Makes me question who is behind these recent statements. I don’t believe they will go anywhere for the foreseeable. Just my opinion.

@Larlar
No not at all.
I just want everybody to think a little bit wider than their own living room. The concept that the UK gives loads of money to the EU 'for nothing in return' is so wrong when you start to factor in the security and 'comfort' of being in a place with like minded people.
In Britain the papers are full of any 'slip ups' the EU may make. Papers, at least the tabloids, rarely report on 'good' news as it is deemed boring so won't sell papers. The bias towards the negative is huge unless it is some blokes kicking a ball about manage to miraculously kick it into a net (yawn).

Who the fuck does have a 'golden past', apart from maybe the landed gentry? But cutting our country off from the marketplace where it buys and sells pretty much all its goods makes no sense at all. Does anyone honestly think that the USA under Trump is going to give us a great trade deal? What about Australia and New Zealand, all the way on the far side of the world - are those going to be great suppliers and markets - weeks away by ship? We're in a much better position with our suppliers and markets on our doorstep than if they're thousands of miles away. I appreciate that if you aren't well educated and haven't ever given it much thought then 'sticking it to the EU' might seem like a fun idea, but to anyone with a grain of sense it's clearly a terrible idea.

I am not buying into the whole Airbus / Siemens leaving thing (which I know you will find very frustrating). It’s not what they have said anyway

I can see a company which has supply chains all over Europe being concerned with delays and bureaucracy due to borders and tariffs.

Airbus is a consortium and about 11% is 'British' owned.
Their business plans run for 10 years or more, more than 2 parliaments.
China is itching to get the work that is done in the UK so deliberately making costs rise (having an border with the EU which is REQUIRED if/ when we leave) will simply make Airbus forget about any future investment in the UK and move elsewhere. It would take a few years but would happen.
Similarly BMW, their strategies revolve around introducing new models so although they probably won't pull out of making the Mini, they just won't invest for any new models. Same basic plan for any International company with a workforce partly in Britain.
Companies DO NOT let their intentions known if at all possible as it opens them up to 'attack' from rivals, that is a basic 'commercial' thing and not necessarily political.

54332 I really do agree with you but as for looking beyond your own living front room I just think that actually those places contain people’s own dc and therefore do I blame them for wanting a future for them. I really don’t. I think Brexiteers are totally misguided but I really get where (some of them) they are coming from. There was a woman speaker at yesterday’s match who wa furious that EU doctors are leaving the NHS which again I get. However, here’s a radical thought. Why not give all young people in the UK a fucking decent education so that more people can train to be doctors? Let’s try to start trying to reboot social mobility. Problem is we won’t because there’s no political will to do that because if Kayleigh from Darlington has a shot at becoming a doctor that could hinder the chances of Charlotte from the Home Counties and the middle classes --mumsnet— would hate that.
I really don’t believe a single word from posters who show concern about industry. If they really did, where the fuck have they been for the past 30 years. As for people who marched with miners, I was there and I don’t remember seeing loads of young women who would one day grow up to be mumsnetters standing shoulder to shoulder with miners. I know the odd coachload of students occasionally turned up but they tended to do Moore harm than good, but I sure it made interesting dinner party conversation for them in later years. If I am honest I believe that the majority of the middle class are angry about Brexit because it fucks up their French holidays and makes them appear less sophisticated to the Spanish couple they regularly have dinner with. I may be wrong but that’s how I feel.

Australia and New Zealand are part of the group of countries trading in the Asia-Pacific area. They largely abandoned Europe long ago.
Someone was waffling about the UK being one of the greatest traders a few days ago.
Look at the WTO trade data and although the UK is mentioned (mostly as part of the EU), it is NOT a big player when seen from a world view. The UK does less than a half the trade compared to Germany.