Aibu to think “loola” and “noony” aren’t words interchangeable with genitals?!

[Mightymelon]

And that cutesy words for your genitals help NOBODY AT ALL?

To cut a long story short - I’m friends with a girl, who has seen one of those posts on Facebook, about correctly naming genitals to avoid confusion when kids have uti’s or worse, have been abused.
DF mentioned that in this thread as well as the willy/mini/front bottom names loola and noony being used by children instead of vagina/ vulva and penis, and said she’d never heard of it before. Nor have I?

Firstly I would like to know if IABU to have never heard of these words?

SECONDLY I WOULD LIKE TO URGE YOU WITH EVERY OUNCE OF MY BEING TO TEACH YOUR KIDS APPROPRIATE WORDS FOR THEIR GENITALS SO THAT IF ANYTHING’s WRONG THE ADULTS WHO DEAL WITH IT (TEACHERS/CHILDMINDERS/HCP’s/THE POLICE) CAN DO SO WITH AS LITTLE TRAUMA AND FUSS AS POSSIBLE!!

I do actually agree PP you can't make a blanket statement that it will automatically protect DC from abuse but it is part of a toolkit for anti abuse tactics

It is a well known important tactic but no I agree blanket statements aren't appropriate but it's a valid part of the toolkit

Yes obviously there is more to protecting children from abuse than simply using the correct words.

But it is simple, important and it helps.

"Kids should be taught the pants area is private to them and no one should see it except Mum/Dad/carer etc." Given that most abusers (especially of v young children) are mum/dad/carer that's why I said and think teaching privacy/bodily autonomy/what's NOT ok - is more important. In my case my abuser was my father. When I eventually disclosed to my mother she refused to believe me. Still does. I've disclosed to others since and almost all have believed me. But this wasn't until I was an adult. As it happened in the 80's I don't know what would have happened if I'd disclosed to a teacher or whoever. I suspect little as my father was and is a very charming, articulate and convincing liar. There would have been no physical evidence as it didn't reach the level of activity which would have left any.

Surely what we want is abuse prevented being the priority rather than overly concerning ourselves with the words used to disclose abuse AFTER its happened, AFTER the damage has been done.

One case used as an exemplar of children's use of euphemisms doesn't suggest to me there's strong evidence of children who use euphemisms being more likely to be targeted. I also wonder if any research on this has also taken into account other factors that make children vulnerable to abuse.

I was early teens when it happened to me. I certainly knew the correct terms. Knew what was happening was wrong - to the extent I barricaded/booby trapped my room at night. Didn't protect me.

Looking at the nspcc site the main risk factors for me were domestic abuse generally and substance abuse. My mum couldn't protect herself, she'd no chance of protecting me - in my abusers eyes. He wasn't wrong.

"Boys aren’t really so much the concern, they have less internal sexual organs and they are far less likely to be abused." Says who?! Less likely to report I'd believe but less likely to be abused? That comment is disgustingly dismissive of boys who have/are being abused! Don't they deserve protection too?

"Graphistas advice goes against every piece of literature released by child protection agencies and any advice any SW or childcare protection professional will give you. " oh really?! I'd LOVE to see evidence of THAT!

"and the only thing that really matters here." So the names kids use are more important than practice that would likely prevent abuse in the first place?

Googling the ONLY thing I can find regarding euphemisms are claims it SUPPOSEDLY reflects an atmosphere of secrecy and its THAT ATMOSPHERE of shame and secrecy that puts kids at risk - not the use of euphemisms.

One article even admits there's a LACK of evidence to support this.

The advice that is given is actually to be open and honest in discussing bodies (in an appropriate way of course) and oh... What a shock - BODILY AUTONOMY is top or near the top of every article of prevention of abuse advice.

"It could be that there is a correlation between correct terminology and less abuse, but that doesn't mean causation." Also true.

"Quite simply men are less likely to groom children who speak frankly and in an adult manner about their genitals." That's NOT the same as saying

Using euphemisms = more vulnerable to abuse!

That's saying children taught bodily autonomy, raised to be self confident, not taught secrecy around their bodies/sex/sexuality are more vulnerable.

The idea it's the euphemisms that are the problem and not all the other factors that make some children more vulnerable is in my opinion a dangerous distraction.

"Could it just be that the children of those who teach them the correct anatomical terms are less likely to be abused anyway?" I think this is far more likely the case. Maybe in 20 years IF all young children were taught the correct anatomical names it would become clear that actually there were other reasons certain children were vulnerable.

the TA/teacher/school nurse to deduce your kid has a UTI

School nurse? This isn't 1985. No primary schools have school nurses and I would hope that a secondary child could explain what the issue was.

I actually completely agree with bodily autonomy being an important point

I firmly believe that teaching children they have the right of say over their bodies is also a big factor in preventing abuse, as is rightly pointed out it can often be a family member rather than a stranger so they should be taught entirely that their body needs to be respected by all

As much as googling will obviously be the answer to all of life's questions it shockingly does not answer all questions

Sadly professionally I dealt with a lot of the offshoots of abuse cases and I promise you that shame and nervousness from adults is most definately a barrier to reporting,I've heard it to and time again.

It's also a barrier to healing after abuse

Whilst I completely agree prevention is better than after support (hence my stance on bodily autonomy, the need for security checks as well as appropriate social modelling) I consider it silly and misguided to suggest that a tecnique for reporting is a "distraction"

As much as we all hate it abuse dies happen despite best efforts sometimes and we have a responsibility to ensure that anyone having experienced it is supported in a safe non embarrassed or judgemental space to disclose and seek justice for the perpetrator

I would also argue that all of the processes in my previous post also prevent further abuse from the same perpetrator

I'd go to he'll and back to prevent a single child being abused...but Christ having sat in a multitude if group rooms listening to the devastation caused...there should be no shame or embarrassment that prevents a child speaking up, a perpetrator being stopped or other children being protected

You'll forgive me if worrying about blushes and the politeness status quo does not register on that scale

As in all conversations about this, I just can’t underarm why anyone would argue against what SW’a and HCP tell them and use silly names anyway.

Even if there’s a small chance it does help prevent abuse or allows it to be discovered qiuickly and makes it easier to be disclosed to courts etc

Why, why fight it? It’s such a simple thing .

I’m a social worker, I’ve got over 20 years experience in child protections my kids know correct terms for their body but in day to day chat they both use nicknames for their genitalia.

I don’t see it as opening them up to risk or leaving them unprotected. We talk, a lot. They know the parts of their body which are private and they know they get to decide if they want to give hugs and kisses etc, and they know we don’t keep secrets from each other. They know that even if they think they’ve done something very wrong, we can talk about it and it will be ok. And I really listen to them and what they have to say. All of which is known to be protective for kids, I’m not going to fret about my child calling his penis a dinky. I think folk like to think there’s a magic bullet that prevent children being abused but, if parents don’t listen to their children, don’t build good relationships, don’t let their child have control over their own bodies, doesn’t take an interest in understanding their child’s world and shames them when they make mistakes it really doesn’t matter if their child calls it a penis, vagina or dinkydonk.

I’d be amazed that a childcare professional wouldn’t take the time to listen to a child and understand what they were saying, to where if - a child said “someone hurt their Minnie” they wouldnt ask more about it. That case example shows terrible practice on the part of the professional in not listening to the child, much more than emphasising any lesson on how children should name their body.

Its all part of sex education which starred early in our house. Have always used correct terminology. Would just feel ridiculous using words like foofoo or noonoo etc

The Childcare professional assumed it was a doll being discussed and the abuse continued
I refuse to believe that. But if true then the "professional" is too dense for most paid employment

I just don't understand why we get all funny about it - I wouldn't teach my kids that their elbow is called a 'bendyboo' so why all these twee cutesy names for anywhere else on their bodies?

Exactly! And it becomes a wider problem as you then get grown adults who can't/are "too embarrassed" to talk about their own bodies. I had a bloody midwife ask me how I was "down there" in hushed tones. And we wonder why so many women won't go for a smear test.....?

That is what is against SW policy and the only thing that really matters here

Can you point to the SW policy please. I’m a SW and train in child protection and I’ve never cane across a policy that says parents can’t let their children use whatever words they like for their bodies. Such a policy would be unenforceable any way.

SWs will work with kids using whatever language they use, clarifying as they go in investigations. In professional meetings of course they will use appropriate terminology but working with children there are numerous ways to explore what has happened - while I hear you concerned about the child being traumatised, it’s the original abuse that was traumatic. The investigation is far from easy but the damage was already done as it were. Actually, insisting the child use unfamiliar language for their body can be both confusing and unsettling - it’s an easy thing to establish what a child means when they say “dinky” and then use it through the interview, I’d expect professionals in an interview to use the child’s words as much as possible because changing their language can be seen as leading the interview.

I will fight against any furthering of this peadphohile culture we live in and question anyone who, despite armed with the facts, continues to teach little girls that their genitals are a playful, naughty toy that should be discussed in code words and hushed voices.

This^^

Even with the veil of anonymity that the Internet provides, sexually active adult women still refer to their period as "AF", and their genitals as "foo", "mimsy", "fanjo" and the perennial MN classic, from a married woman in her 30s "savaged by my Min-Min"
If adult women think the skies will fall down and hellfire reign supreme across Earth if they say vagina or vulva, then their children won't do much better.

"I wouldn't teach my kids that their elbow is called a 'bendyboo' so why all these twee cutesy names for anywhere else on their bodies?"

The number of euphemisms for a body part is surely linked to centuries-old social norms/taboos around it - an elbow is neutral bodily territory, but primary genitalia and other areas, for example the anus are less so - surely you can see that? If I had a cut on my elbow I might show someone at work but if I had haemorrhoids I'd probably keep that to myself.

People don't commonly go around discussing their genitals. Perhaps we should, but we don't. I don't think it's fair to blame parents in exclusion for this, or expect individual families to enact widespread social change. As others, and I have said, many children do know the correct anatomical words and surely that's the main thing.

I do agree though that the utter tweeness of most euphemisms for female genitalia is a problem. Compare 'flower', 'tuppence', 'loola' etc to 'cock' 'balls' 'dick', etc. I would happily get involved in a Mumsnet campaign for better ones!

(Camel's excellent point about 'cunt' notwithstanding - I read an excellent article by Laurie Penny yesterday off the back of that)

Using “cute” names for genitals teaches children the proper names for these body parts are in some way wrong to say. It enhances a sense of secrecy about genitals.

If I taught my DC that his arm what to be called a woozy and his tummy was a pooky...everyone would quite rightly think I’d gone mad. It’s no different for penis.

But tummy is a cutesy name for abdomen, belly button is a cutesy name for navel - we use cutesy names and nicknames for parts of the body, for every day objects, people and places. God forbid we expect children to know and pronounce correctly every word upon learning to speak - family euphemisms are one of the things that bind families together. It’s no more wrong for my child to talk about piled up pasta (meaning lasagne) or flat high heels (meaning shoes with no buckle) than it is to call her vagina her dinky (in our house both children have adopted the same nickname for their genitalia).

They know the correct terms in the same way they know what lasagne is called but their developmental stage means they play about with words and language. As they get older the nicknames will fall away but at this point in time I’m not going to worry about it.

But tummy is a cutesy name for abdomen, belly button is a cutesy name for navel

Both of which are widely understood. Using your example “dinky” wouldn’t be.

Jelly
And some families are ‘binded together’ by abuse

As for relevant policy, I don’t have access to that. It was the FIRST thing we learned on our social worker degree and is something the NSPCC works to promote. If people who have been SW for 20 years are actively going against current standards in their own homes AND suggesting that other people do the same despite the WEALTH of evidence to the contrary, I would say they need to improve their practise.

This might be hard information to google but it would not be hard to establish as a trained social worker. Do better

I worked for the nspcc and devised and delivered much of their training - the advice is to speak openly about our bodies, to teach children to name their bodies appropriately and for children to have confidence in knowing the parts of their body which are private, not to never use anything other than anatomically correct language regardless of age, stage and development of the child.

Despite you saying there’s a wealth of evidence to suggest that a child calling their penis a willy directly puts children at risk, you’ve not produced any. You’re referring to policy that you can’t quote and a profession that you apparently started a degree in but don’t practice in. I’d suggest im not the one that needs to do better.

Jelly

I’m saying toy names for body parts adds to a culture of abuse.

Why this isn’t something you’ve come across in your many years of social work training and your NSPCC work I don’t know because those were the avenues we were taught this from.

Which I’m sure means if YOU want to go and find the case studies then as a SW that would be very easy for you, after all this is what they’re teaching new SW RIGHT NOW

however I’m just an average joe. I’m
Not going to sit in a google war with you about something you have more access than than me. I know I’ve not made it up and I know what I was taught.

You saying something totally different I find quite worrying.

It’s interesting that no one on the thread who calls vaginas “dinky” or “Minnie” or whatever is exploring the reasons why.

Why do you?

I'll tell you why adults on mn use nicknames for their genitals (which auto corrected to gerbils ) because god flrbid if they use vagina when they meant vulva they'd be slated and hung, drawn and quartered by the MN jury!

Why do people keep using the revolting euphemism “front bottom”? I am female and I assure you that I only have one bottom (located in the usual place).

I just can't get worked up about this. It's 'noony' or 'noon' in this house (with the 'oo' as in 'look' not 'moon' iyswim) which I think is fine for a 4 year old. We have also used the words penis and vagina, but not for every day use.

The important thing I'm teaching my kids is that whatever it's called, what's in their underwear is theirs and theirs alone though, surely it doesn't matter if I'm using anatomically correct language?

I don't know, as a teacher I would raise much more of an eyebrow at a 6 year old girl disclosing that someone had touched their 'vulva' than their 'noony/loola/bits/minnie'. But then I guess that's the problem. I would think it was very weird though!