to wonder why anyone votes tory?

[traciebanbanjo]

All they seem to represent us keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor. There doesn't seem to be that many rich people so why do they get so many votes?

Could that be because you aren't making a valid argument?

I've seen how weak Labour lets the Tories get away with all sorts of shit.

Somebody has to vote the Tories in. If you vote Tory knowing that the Tories are shit but claim you can't vote Labour you are part of the problem.

As pp said Tories are trashing the economy in the name of Brexit.

Thinking brexit is left/right issue is the first part of where your argument falls down.

Brexit is trashing the economy, the same people making these warnings are the same people who was warning about Corbyn's policies should he had won the last GE

www.ft.com/content/03a9d01e-2b81-11e8-9b4b-bc4b9f08f381

But, what a lot of Pro Remain Corbyn fans (like yourself) seem to ignore is that you pick and choose when to listen and tie yourself up in knots as long as you are against the Tories.

No it’s because if you think Corbyn is your answer to the Tories you are in cloud cocoo land and debate is pointless.

Let’s continur after the next election when labour will be wiped out just like after foot.

I'm not sure listing Banks as criticisms of Corbyn is effective.

Lots of the same people who back remaining do back Corbyn's policies on the economy too.

But then you don't have to agree with everything.

"Let’s continur after the next election when labour will be wiped out just like after foot."

Yes, do you remember all the threads here and in other places crowing about wiping Labour out last time?

for someone who isn’t Tory you invest s he’ll of s lot of time bashing corbyn

You just made my point there! No dissent to the dear leader. Fuck off anyone who sees him for what he is and if you don’t worship him you are clearly a tory!

So fucking childish.

So labour won the last election then did they? They lost. Even with this awful tory government they lost!

Give up now

Ignore all other arguments Torys vs Labour etc could easily be summarised as the individual against the collective.

Now i know this varies by degrees but most Tory voters don't want to kick the poor but are also probably strong believers in improvement comes from the individual choices.

Universal credit is the perfect example of this. Labour voters complain it costs more than the previous system but are entirely missing the point. The change to universal credit is suppose to represent a mental change where working is always better than collecting welfare. Even if it costs twice as much to administer most Tory voters would probably support it as it fits with the mindset that the choice of the individual has a major effect on their life outcomes rather than the choices the state make. It doesn't matter if this is true or right or anything, that is the position.

A perfect example of the different mindsets is myself and one of my best friends. She is a massive labour supporter and does a huge amount of good work in the community. I also do a lot of work in the community but our approaches are completely different. While she focuses on how people feel and making their lives better from a grass roots level. I tend to focus on events and donations as its what I've always been good at, I can bring in the money and then direct it to charity organisations but ask me how best to spend it to make someones life better and i would draw a blank as I really don't have any understanding of how life can be for people in trouble as my background and life experience is worlds apart. I know i want to help though.

The part of labour i really understand well is its engagement with the unions as they are proper organisations with charters and voting bodies that can effect policy and peoples lives and I would have probably been a labour voter in a previous life! I can see why historically the Tories have been hostile to them as it is a route for ordinary people to empower themselves.

" No dissent to the dear leader"

That wasn't the point of that post, its a well known trope on the internet ( and in others) to say things like " Oh I was remain but now..." in order to try to discredit others.

In fact its a kind of fallacy.

I really cannot stand Theresa May and could not vote Conservative again while she is leader. Now she is clearly looking at increasing taxation to increase NHS funding - contrary to the manifesto - it is even worse. If there was some other source of income available for this I wouldn't object to paying a bit more but what she will do is pronounce herself a heroine for doing this when all she has done is to increase the burden on the taxpayer.

After the last election I joined the Labour Party, mainly to support our excellent Labour MP who does great work in our constituency. I would vote Labour again in this particular constituency as the Conservative candidate is pro hunting and culling badgers but whether they could run the country is another matter. It is Diane Abbott I'm most worried about, I cringe with embarrassment every time she speaks.

"So labour won the last election then did they? They lost. Even with this awful tory government they lost!

Give up now"

Again thats not what was said.

The Tories didn't fight a great campaign, but they had huge advantages in terms of starting point, funding, and the biggest smear campaign on a leader of the opposition for decades running in 4/5 of the highest selling newspapers in the country.

Labour ran a good campaign and won votes.

Your narrative that it was down to the tories is shaped to suit your argument that Labour are incompetent, paradoxly by showing that the Tories ran an inept campaign.

Yep yep.

Clearly the vast majority of the electorate will vote for Corbyn to be leader and Abbott to be home sec.

You carry on in your echo chamber where you can all debate and worship Corbyn together..

Tetchy Tories in cyber meltdown! Lets see how the electorate feels after Brexit has destroyed the country both economically and socially.

Labour front bench are incompetent. The tory ones marginally less so.

Theresa ran a dreadful campaign while Corbyn promised the world to everyone.

He still lost

"echo chamber"

People counter you with facts and rationale and you just stick to the hyperbole and rhetoric.

You carry on in your echo chamber where you can all debate and worship Corbyn together..

You hate it don't you? Years of smears against Corbyn and people still support him. You are losing because people are waking up to negative politics. Waking up to the crock of shit austerity. Looking on in fear as the Tories, propped up by the DUP in the weakest, lamest government in living memory turn the UK into a laughing stock. The slurs won't work, the Tories terrible record can no longer be hidden.

Indeed Danniz - although there was no comment on the state of GDP earlier.

Yes there was, you are trying to pin point q1 growth solely on Tory policy to score political points, which shows you really are just as guilty as falling for propaganda and bias as you accuse others of doing.

It isn't as black and white as you are making out

Professor Mark Blyth writes and speaks a lot about austerity, and is quite an interesting speaker:

TL;DW private debt got turned into public debt, on a global scale, which is why the policy of austerity has been a Europe-wide not just a matter of UK party politics.

The issue now, is whether a broad policy shared by EU members is being pursued a bit too enthusiastically by the Conservatives.

"The issue now, is whether a broad policy shared by EU members is being pursued a bit too enthusiastically by the Conservatives."

Austerity tends not to work in terms of getting the economy to grow, what it does do is allow the defunding of public services.

I'd also agree that that the EU has too enthusiastically embraced austerity, but in some cases ( like Greece) it was extremely necessary.

Trueblue, I agree that that tends to be how people divide. I am in your camp as it were and I vote Conservative.

What is relevant to the thread is why people vote Conservative - and many of us have had a go at saying why we do. It's a large number of reasons though from lots of different people. Labour are going to have an uphill struggle unless Brexit is so dire people are on their knees and want a change in 2022.

Lets see how the electorate feels after Brexit has destroyed the country both economically and socially.

If you think Labour will come out of this unscared you really are blindly following a football team.

Although I think Justanotherlurker, as its the Tories that are in charge, Tories that ran the leave campaign, Tories that brought about the referendum, they are firmly going to own the consequences of a bad brexit.

Its one of the reasons why the narrative quickly after the referendum changed to blaming Corbyn. He was an easy target, and it distracts from who created this mess and why.

If you think Labour will come out of this unscared you really are blindly following a football team.

Some facts sports fans;

Euroscepticism has plagued the Tory party for a quarter of a century.
The Tories called the referendum
The Tories are taking the UK out of the EU.

Give up. You presided over the decimation of labour and pat yourselves on your privileged backs.

You don’t need them to be strong do you? Clearly suits your backs too to be protesters and feel its edgy to support Corbyn.

It’s forgivable in the kids. If you, like me, remember the last decimation of labour and the thatcher years as an adult with a mortgage and kids to feed, it’s disgraceful and shameful.

On austerity, distinction needs to be made between the 17 members of the Eurozone, and the others. We're one of the others. We didn't have to pursue austerity the way we did, or at all, it's purely Tory ideology. Mark Blyth's Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea is essential reading, as well as his lectures online. How could politicians make the same mistake at least four times now, two of which led to world wars, now maybe three.

Your narrative that it was down to the tories is shaped to suit your argument that Labour are incompetent, paradoxly by showing that the Tories ran an inept campaign.

Tories ran a totally inept campaign and labour still lost, trying to spin this as a win is what is delusional. It's not fighting second place.

It's the same rhetoric when Labour didn't sweep to victory in the local elections. The only "smear" that caused the labour losses where momentum.