to wonder why anyone votes tory?

[traciebanbanjo]

All they seem to represent us keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor. There doesn't seem to be that many rich people so why do they get so many votes?

Puzzled - heard of David clapson? Mark wood?

Yes, I'd heard of them both ... in the first case, unless I've missed something, I didn't think there's been an inquest yet and in the second I thought the coroner said that the cause of his death couldn't be positively identified?

I'm well aware this will sound like a mulish refusal to accept what some regard as obvious, but it genuinely isn't that any more than I'm trying to "blame" the victims of mental health. While funding may have some relation to the issues, given that correlation isn't causation - and especially with the noise and fury surrounding the whole issue - I prefer to rely on provable facts rather than politically or financially motivated twaddle

In the words of Keith Simpson, the wartime Home Office pathologist: "We'll all die after our last meal, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it killed us"

"Give up. You presided over the decimation of labour and pat yourselves on your privileged backs."

Would this be Labour who gained seats and % of the vote in the last election? Hardly decimated.

"Clearly suits your backs too to be protesters and feel its edgy to support Corbyn. " Again, no one has said this, you are setting up this argument to knock it down, hmm what kind of fallacy is this?

Again, you are making this all personal and creating fallacious arguments to try to make your point.

Try harder.

If you, like me, remember the last decimation of labour and the thatcher years as an adult with a mortgage and kids to feed, it’s disgraceful and shameful.

Boom and bust free market economics. The Tories championed it. Corbyn does not.

Tories ran a totally inept campaign and labour still lost, trying to spin this as a win is what is delusional. It's not fighting second place.

The Tories are only in government because of the DUP. Handed £1.5 billion quid after May told a nurse, just weeks earlier that she couldn't have a pay rise because there was no magic money tree.

The election was called because May's buddies in the press thought that they had smeared Corbyn enough to secure a Tory landslide.

"It's the same rhetoric when Labour didn't sweep to victory in the local elections."

Again though, this was never predicted, Labour did win a larger share of the vote than they had in the previous year's general election, and the best performance since 2012 when they got 38% of the vote.

A lot of the hype about them not taking London boroughs is well over the top. Labour haven't been in control in Barnet ever, for example, yet were criticised for gaining seats there but not control of the borough .

Euroscepticism has plagued the Tory party for a quarter of a century.

Ignores the many on the left who were also Eurosceptic

The Tories called the referendum
Again ignores many in labour who also voted for referendum on our exit of the EU, namly one Jeremy Corbyn

The Tories are taking the UK out of the EU.
If you treat politics like a football team then it will not touch Labour, as it is, they will be burnt as well.

If you treat politics like a football team then it will not touch Labour, as it is, they will be burnt as well.

Isn't that what Grieve did yesterday? Party before country always.

"Tories ran a totally inept campaign and labour still lost, trying to spin this as a win is what is delusional. It's not fighting second place. "

The Tories ran a campaign with greater funding, possible breaking of electoral rules, and the print media massively onside ( and if anyone still doubts their influence that's another debate). They also started from a position of strength because the general narrative was that they were stable and Labour was in dissary.

Blaming it on the Tories rather than saying that Labour ran a campaign which was good and had popular policies allows the narrative that Labour are incompetent to stay, paradoxically by making the Tories look incompetent.

Labour's campaign was good, to come from so far behind in the polls and a predicted landslide was a major achievement.

A week longer campaigning and it might have gone the other way, might not.

I voted Remain and I hate Corbyn. I also hate the Tories.
Not just me who thinks like that but if you want to alienate me and everyone who thinks like me, go ahead. It's a losing strategy. As evidenced by the last GE.

Justanother,

You really are deflecting here.

Euroscepticism has plagued the Tory party for a quarter of a century, it nearly brought down Major, Cameron was forced to call the referendum because of it ( forget UKIP look up the Backbench business committee).

It wasn't the left in Labour who forced this issue.

"Again ignores many in labour who also voted for referendum on our exit of the EU, namly one Jeremy Corbyn"

Actually the referendum bill was backed 544 to 53 due to the nature of it being in the Tory manifesto and parliamentary procedure on that.

The election was called because May's buddies in the press thought that they had smeared Corbyn enough to secure a Tory landslide.

Not quite true, one main factor was Brexit.

There would be far more cries of "unelected" had she tried to steer us through the shit show without her legitimately winning an election.

May wanted the last election because she felt it would give her authority to run brexit, but she would never have called it if she thought there was a chance of losing the majority they already had.

She didn't win a majority and now she doesn't have a mandate for any of the policies in the manifesto and they should all be put through parliament.

Of course that's what Yesterday's vote was about, the supremacy of the executive over parliament.

Democracy and sovereignty eh?

Again though, this was never predicted

Thats revisionism:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-london-local-elections-2018-win-best-results-party-poll-a8221081.html

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/30/local-elections-political-engagement-voter-turnout-polly-toynbee

The Tories ran a campaign with greater funding, possible breaking of electoral rules, and the print media massively onside

Labour managed to raise more money in 2015 and was fined for actually breaking the rules, and still lost.

That is our shit political system, but to again try and paint it one way is disingenuous.

It wasn't the left in Labour who forced this issue.
It wasn't it was the rise of UKIP from taking the traditional Labour supporters and hard line tories.

Labour with the current front bench will not come out of brexit unscathed, to think they will is just wishful thinking

May wanted the last election because she felt it would give her authority to run brexit, but she would never have called it if she thought there was a chance of losing the majority they already had.

Well yes, that's what I was trying to say.

It doesn't matter that she didn't win a majority, due to our shite FPTP system she was able to form the government. Trying to paint Labour being in opposition as a win because they gained more vote share than 2015 is grasping at straws.

The fact the polls still put corbyn behind May and in some instances behind "don't know" as who would make the best PM says more about the current shit show that is labour than it does about the tories, his most ardent fans keep trying to find any scapegoat rather than do any kind of introspection.

One poll doesn't make a result. Labour won a larger share of the vote than they had done in the last election.

"It wasn't it was the rise of UKIP from taking the traditional Labour supporters and hard line tories. "
That was one issue, another was that it forced from within the party, like I say go look up the back bench business comittee and their actions from 2010 on wards.

What Cameron feared more than anything else was that Labour would win a larger share of the vote in 2015, as had been predicted, so needed to keep the shires and other areas where UKIP threatened to take away from the Tory vote happy by promising a referendum.

"Trying to paint Labour being in opposition as a win because they gained more vote share than 2015 is grasping at straws. "

Nope, no one is saying its a Labour win, what they are saying is that Labour out performed everyone's expectations and ran a good campaign which was liked by a large number of the electorate.

Saying that Labour lost because they were incompetent because the Tories ran and incompetent campaign is just designed to fit a certain narrative, and also has quite a lot of cognitive dissonance.

They lost. They should have won. You can do all the internal sympathy justification stuff you want but they lost.

"They lost. They should have won. You can do all the internal sympathy justification stuff you want but they lost."

Or you can be revisionist in order to fit your narrative.

Your arguments really don't stand much scrutiny do they?

I hate these kind of posts. You hate the idea of voting Tory possibly because you have quite fixed views about what Tory's stand for and the kind of people who vote for them. Have you stopped to consider that some of your views may not actually reflect reality?

Not all Tory voters are rich, or selfish or ignorant, etc, etc. In fact, the opposite is true, if you actually get to know people who vote Tory. Perhaps they don't trust the Labour government, because of their track record with the economy. Tory's have had to deal with the affects of the 2008 crash and any government would have struggled after that. (In 2009 - Labour's last year in government - they borrowed ridiculously more money than any government ever has in history, and since...).

Let's face it, the party options we have to choose between in the voting booth are not great at the moment.

Whatever your views, bashing parties and people who vote for them is really unhelpful and quite ignorant.

@topcat1980 they don't stand up to what you like to hear. given your slavish devotion to JC, not sure that counts as scrutiny.

Who said I was slavish to JC, only you. I'm critical of your posts because they contain fallacious arguments and are often factually incorrect, whilst also making appeals to emotion.

They don't stand up, at all.

"In 2009 - Labour's last year in government - they borrowed ridiculously more money than any government ever has in history, and since...). "

I wonder why that might have been? Surely it must be the Labour parties capricious over spending on public services?

If Labour wants to win a GE, it needs to convince the floating voter, or a good proportion of the ‘rest’ to vote for them. While it, and its most vocal supporters, have absolutely no idea what the ‘rest’ are actually like, they have no chance

Back with the main thrust of the thread, I've rarely seen this better put. For any party, focusing on your client group is all very well, but mistakes can be made when assuming just how many of them they are and especially in assuming pre-election noise will translate to actual votes

There's a reason why we have (supposedly) secret ballots, and unfortunately for some all those silent, floating voters have access to them too

Please identify my fallacious arguments and my factually incorrect statements. Ps disagreeing with you doesn't count . That's a different opinion not a fallacy.

Not all Tory voters are rich, or selfish or ignorant, etc, etc. In fact, the opposite is true, if you actually get to know people who vote Tory. Perhaps they don't trust the Labour government, because of their track record with the economy.

Please back this up with facts. The economy was in good shape until the global financial crisis, the fault of an unscrupulous financial services industry kickstarted and emboldened by who exactly?

Tory's have had to deal with the affects of the 2008 crash and any government would have struggled after that.

What they didn’t have to do was shrink the U.K. economy via austerity, claiming that this was necessary in order to pay off the deficit (which in itself is unnecessary) by 2015. How did that work out?