to wonder why anyone votes tory?

[traciebanbanjo]

All they seem to represent us keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor. There doesn't seem to be that many rich people so why do they get so many votes?

So the Strivers vsSkivers rhetoric used by the Tories in 2010-2015 didn't happen?

What did happen was that Ed M spent the whole of the 2015 GE campaign talking about zero-hours contracts and foodbanks. The implication seemed to be that these were the ‘norm’ for anyone other than the super rich.

On the other hand, DC talked about the increase in personal tax allowance, reduction in income tax, triple-lock on pensions etc. Whether these are great for the economy, public services and vulnerable groups are irrelevant - they were simply more relevant and appealing to the average floating-voter.

Labelling these floating voters as thick, or short-sighted, or bigoted or racist or any of those other insults thrown at people who don’t vote for left-leaning parties is nothing more than an emotionally satisfying distraction. They will still not vote Labour if the process is repeated.

This is where New Labour succeeeded.

Again, I've not seen anyone labeled thick or racist just because they vote tory, I've seen people's comments criticised because of the content.

Its almost like its a defence, make a powerful majority feel like an oppressed minority, actually its worked very well in terms of Brexit and Trump.

I don't think that the Tories won in 2015 because of Cameron talking up the increases in personal tax threshold (actually a lib dem policy) more because Labour weren't different enough, and both parties bought into the public spending causing austerity myth.

@TammySwansonTwo Thu

Linking 2018 Q1 data and ignoring all external factors just to bang a political drum, no wonder you fell for the Tax Research piece.

Dh has had the same job for 39 years and it’s taken him years and years to get anywhere near the top ten percent ( just) we are not rich at all though - modest home and car etc etc.
There are tradesmen and women around younger and richer than we are with two homes!
Still wouldn’t vote Tory though - but I also realise labour needs new leader to attract the people who only vote for them as they dont see any other alternative whilst Jc is in charge.

But I didn't vote Tory and I am still getting predictable criticism on here for hating Corbyn.
At best he's a Marmite leader. And I don't like Marmite.

Tammy

Just for one second stop printing links and answer a question.

Do you honestly think Corbyn and his front bench are electable?

The quintiles of earners hasn't changed much and the top 5 % in terms of wealth isn't the same as the top 5 % of earners.

Earning over £40,000 puts you in the top 20% of earners, using ONS data.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2015

As I have said about a hundred times now, the current labour leadership received just 2.4% less of the vote at the last GE than those currently running the country, even with the biggest political smear job I’ve seen in this country in my lifetime. So yes, of course I do.

And I’m so sorry for using facts to counter bias and bullshit. How ridiculous. What do people have against facts these days?

I agree Tammy the constant "Do you think they are electable?" thing is a bit daft seeing as the vote was so close.

Obviously ever so slightly fewer people see them as electable as don't, and it was Labour that gained % of the vote and seats in this election.

I find this issue over Corbyn leadership similar to the trans debate.

If you dare to say self ID is problematic for women you are anti trans.

If you dare to say no Corbyn isn’t electable and he and momentum are ruining the Labour Party then you are a rabid tory or a blairite.

It’s such a childish way to debate.

And again no Corbyn supporter on her has answered the question.

Do you think he can win an election.??

"If you dare to say no Corbyn isn’t electable and he and momentum are ruining the Labour Party then you are a rabid tory or a blairite. "

Strawman, not seen anyone say that on this thread other than people making a similar point to you.

@TammySwansonTwo - your devotion to Corbyn is admirable if utterly misguided. And waving links at people will not change minds. The poor calibre if JC personally and his team generally will not win over people who aren't you.
As I have already said, any half decent Labour leader can show me a spreadsheet about poverty and injustice. But that doesn't bridge the trust gap if I don't like their personal record. And his personal record is shockingly poor.
To pretend that the person of the leader is irrelevant is just kidding yourself.

I just explicitly said that of course I believe he’s electable.

That means of course I believe they can win the next election. What else would it mean?

No one has said any such thing but right now, based on my experience, the priority has to be to get the tories out, urgently.

@topcat1980 - you are just being childish. That impresses no one who is a grown up.

OOOH and an ad hom now.

Still no facts though, just fallacies.

@TammySwansonTwo - if you genuinely want to get the Tories out (an admirable notion) get an opposition leader that people can vote for. Like Cooper. Frankly, at this point, I'd even vote for Burnham. And I don't like him at all.

But it isn’t a strawman is it? The question is ‘why does anyone vote tory?’ The answer of ‘because I can’t possible vote Labour with Corbyn as leader’ is perfectly valid.

You may not personally recall anyone who criticises Corbyn being labelled a rabid tory, or anyone voting tory labelled thick or racist but it does happen. I’ve seen far worse insults levelled at tory voters. I’m not going back through 26 pages on here to find them, but I’ve seen it plenty of times.

I was personally called ‘Thathcer’s daughter’ on a FB group for criticising Corbyn - despite saying numerous times that I was a floating voter.

It’s always the wrong labour leader. It’s disingenuous and the right wing narrative. Milliband was apparently left wing! The people who supposedly couldn’t vote for him lament the lack of centrist leaders. Milliband was centrist.

MO is the same denigrate labour brush Tory ineptitude under the carpet.

No the strawman is when people say " if you say you vote tory everyone else says you are thick and racist " .

It isn't true and its used to dismiss any counter arguments, a true strawman.

It also depends what you crticise Corbyn for, if its for policy, fine, but if like basil above you repeatedly attack his character based on counterfactual information then its different.

"It’s always the wrong labour leader."

Yes remember they said the same thing about Blair, Smith and Kinnock.

"Just not electable" is the same trope pulled out over and over again.

I voted Labour with Milliband as leader. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn.
I voted Labour with Foot as leader. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn. I voted Labour with Kinnock as leader. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn. I voted Labour with Blair as leader. I wouldn't vote for Corbyn.

No, apparently actual facts can’t counter sound bytes these days. Shame.

I have 21 month old twins, one of whom was seriously ill at birth. We are currently undergoing tests for a serious lifelong disability. Since the point they were born I’ve had friends with kids who are around 5-10 years older telling me I should seek this support, that service, call this organisation etc. None of them exist any more. Even with two preemies in nicu, I couldn’t get any breastfeeding support because in my NHS trust they’ve laid off every single member of staff who was focussed on breastfeeding. I had to pump for 7 months. I’ve been advised to call surestart for help - it’s gone. I’ve been advised to go to local toy libraries to borrow the obscenely expensive sensory toys I need for my son - they’re gone.

I felt so strongly about all this that I took a job with the local maternity service specifically aimed at addressing these issues. The government have a big campaign right now to allegedly address these things, there’s a big song and dance about funding... for the next three years. Nothing they want to do can be achieved because it’s not sustainable after that point. I’m on the frontline watching unachievable targets being issued from above and seeing the goalposts moved and from the inside one thing is clear: no one is supposed to succeed. It will be held up as another example of why the NHS absolutely must be privatised.

I’ve had eight surgeries in the last 13 years and seen first hand what’s happening in the NHS. I’m seeing it all over again through my son. It’s utterly disgraceful. I had to stop working full time due to my health and struggle with a tiny amount of self employment after I was told (factually, as it turns out) by a public sector employee that I was the “wrong kind of disabled” to receive any benefits.

I honestly don’t know what lives people are living where this government’s policies aren’t hurting them sufficiently to stop voting Tory.

And as for people refusing to answer a question, what about the disabled children (and adults, but few seem to care about them) who are the next to be attacked financially because of Universal Credit? When the government is going after disabled children and people are still sticking up for them, I have to wonder what’s going on in this country. Disabled kids are unimportant, but there was so much uproar about the “dementia tax” that they had to do a U turn. That should tell you everything you need to know about the state of politics in this country.

I had similar shit 11 years ago with crap maternity care. It wasn't the Tories' fault then.

MO is the same denigrate labour brush Tory ineptitude under the carpet.

Yep! The amount of vitriol here pointed at the shadow cabinet - look at the cabinet FFS! Look at what’s going on. I cannot understand how anyone can look at what’s going on and think it’s a status quo that should be maintained.

Again with the "you must love the Tories " if you don't like the shadow cabinet. FFS.