AIBU to not want this SN child in the same class as mine

[PinkyU]

DD is 5 and moving into P2 which will be a composite 3/2 class. I’ve recently found out that a boy with severe challenging and frequently violent behaviour will be in the same class as a P3.

DD also has SN, cognitive, social emotional and physical needs. She is very vulnerable and significantly smaller than this other child. Small knocks and bumps can cause DD significant injuries such as dislocated hip etc. Their will only be 1 teacher and 1 TA in the class which in non negotiable due to staffing.

I’m concerned that not only will this boy take up a lot of teaching time (away from my DD), he is also a substantial physical risk to DD.

AIBU to discuss/request a change of class for this other child as DD cannot be moved to a different class due to her needs?

@SweetCheeks1980 it's not about excusing the behaviour. My DD1 (9) has SEN as a result of being adopted. Thankfully she only gets violent in the home (towards me or DD2 mostly, she also throws whatever is to hand), not at school, where she goes into her shell.

She's not to blame for her start in life, is she? I don't condone her behaviour, I always sanction her when she lashes out. But at the same time, she needs us to cut her a little slack, IYSWIM.

I would hate to think of other people judging her because of something that really isn't her fault. She struggles with friendships as it is, as she lacks social skills. I wouldn't want other parents to tell their DC to stay away from her.

YABU - you don’t get to pick and choose who is in your childs class.

Hi all,
Apologies for having appeared to take so long to make deletions on this thread; in actual fact we have been on it for a good while, it's just that it grew as fast as we could read it.
We have made several deletions and will be having words with several posters. Some deletions are as a result of having repeated a post that has been removed, so not to worry if that was the case.
Here is a link to our This Is My Child campaign, it does sadly look as if there are a number of posters who could do with a refresh. We are a peer site for all parents of all children, please let's everyone bear that in mind when posting. We hope that the school is able to reassure you, OP.

Heads can no longer exclude children for injuring others and therein lies the problem

Absolutely not true.

However, for a child with SEN which, if left unaddressed, may result in injury to others, obviously the expectation is that the first response is to provide the right SEN support, and the school has equality duties in terms of reasonable adjustments and the duty not punish a child for the effects of their disabilities.

If my son had been aggressive, I wouldn't have sent him to nursery in the first place, where he could be a danger to other children (he's the size of a 4/5 year old at 3).

That would have been a poor parenting decision, unless it had been proven that the nursery could not reasonably be expected to manage him and to protect the other children. Most nurseries can do this. The excuse that the nursery gave you was just that - an excuse. The staff should have been watching a lot more closely and intervening faster; it was down to them to do whatever needed to be done to protect all the other children including yours.

Bullshit @PinkyU

You aren't bothered by the TA's behaviour, you are just pretending in order to get everyone off your back. This TA - who ISNT your dd's personal 1-2-1 has been nasty and unprofessional. She has made it quite clear to you that this other child should not be in a class with your daughter. You are now covering the unkindness up by saying 'he is a lovely boy'. Quite the turnaround. That isn't how you came across at first.

Do you think perhaps she has an ulterior motive for telling you this? That she has complained about her increased work load and that it will be difficult and was dismissed by SLT. So now she comes to you under the guise of "concern" and a friendly chat so worried about your daughter...and you take up the mantle of complaining about this kid.
She has acted in a totally unprofessional and unpleasant way. You've sucked it all up thinking how much she cares about your daughter and don't have the insight to realise that his needs are as great as hers if not more so. I agree children should be safe at school but that doesn't mean you get to throw him under the bus for the sake of your fragile daughter and her inappropriate TA.

If my son had been aggressive, I wouldn't have sent him to nursery in the first place, where he could be a danger to other children

And what if the doctors and the developmental team are telling you it's best to send him to nursery and are taking steps to do this?

It's not black and white and it's not easy.

I know it isn't CaptainKirkssparetupee, the doctors have also recommended my son goes to nursery and hes been injured twice that I know of. I know it's not easy.

I wouldn’t want such an unprofessional teaching assistant working with ds

"This threads shows how many parents simply don’t want their poor children around children who don’t “fit” there boxes sadly."

It needs to be said that kids with SEN are still kids. Some will know right from wrong and will push to see how far they can go just like any other child. Knowing that child helps gauge whether it's the SEN at play with behaviour or the child just pushing the boundary, and the boundary needing to be firm to not give. Boundaries help all kids feel safe.

I know working in my (primary) school class that the kids with SEN and the kids without are not getting an effective education if the kids with SEN are constantly disrupting the class. For some kids it's just too much to expect them to be in a class with 29 others, it's too distracting due to noise and they find it hard to settle. They are not having their needs met, because they need a calm atmosphere with less people, quiet, natural lighting, and a timetable that accommodates them. I know if I'm dealing with managing behaviour during English with Child A with SEN (ASD), and my colleague is dealing with Child B's behaviour (ADHD) then Child C and D who have processing disorder and dyslexia will be getting no support at all. Who helps them?

Yanbu.
A child should should be safe at school. Whether the child has sen or not, shouldn't make a difference to the safety of the other child.
If the other child is posing a significant risk to the learning and physical safety of your child then I would ask to move classes of it wasn't getting resolved.
If her needs can't be met by moving class then the school need to resolve another way.

The idea that children with Sen who 'pose a risk' to other pupils should not be in mainstream is never really thought through or deconstructed.
Because what's actually being said is they should go somewhere where they can only pose a risk to other Sen kids... who presumably don't matter as much?
Or at least where we can't see it.

And the idea of Sen schools being so specialist they would deal effectively with these behaviours is a largely a myth, as anyone who works in high needs schools know.
Sen kids in special schools are more at risk of assault than any other kids. As are the teachers.
But at least most of us, and our kids, don't have to be exposed to it eh?

OP you're not being unreasonable, parents always put their child first, but you understand the schools position.

It's crap for parents of Sen kids at the moment.
But ehcps aren't the answer. Every £10000 spent in producing an ehcps is less money for actual support.
Solution is: more sen money directly to schools, ringfence it and make them accountable.

Tight school budgets means Sen money is getting used in other ways as it's not ringfenced.

But if they can only afford one TA then moving one of the children will mean that one child won't have access to the TA, right?

BabyItsAWildWorld

Whilst that is the tone of some of the posters on here the reality is a bit more complex

My son went to a special school which was specifically for children with autism
The entire environment was designed with sensory issues and support for kids with AsD which meant that all the pupils were far less likely to have meltdowns or outbursts.
Each classroom had a cool down area. The lighting was soft. The sounds were minimal - no bells or loud intercoms. A whole host of specific and deliberate choices which refined the environment. The whole building was designed for that purpose. Additionally the support the children received was absoloutely appropriate and flexible. My son never needed extra support but a child who could be explosive and was having a bad day may have two support staff.

A good special school is a fantastic resource and in no way a lesser choice. My son would never in 1,000,000 years coped in mainstream.

Pagwatch that sounds fantastic it’s just so sad that all children who need such schools don’t get access.

I agree and I think it's incredibly sad that an issue about funding and levels of support gets discussed in terms of one child's needs vs another child's needs.
Both children deserve to be in school adequately supported so that they can receive an education while their needs are being met. That includes resources necessary to support a child who may lash out as a result of their particular SN

Pagwatch you are right some children needs can't/won't be met in mainstream.

But the Idea that children with behavioural difficulties needs are solved by moving schools is largely a myth. Most often those issues continue or intensify, but in an environment where 'its accepted'.

I've seen so so many children moved to 'specialist' provision where the same behaviours continue but in a different setting, and everyone feels somehow happier about that.

SEMH schools in particular have poor outcomes for children on the whole.

Of course this doesn't undermine your own positive experience and I'm really pleased the system worked for your son.

But we now have a situation where even special schools are rejecting the really high needs kids, and saying they can't meet their needs, and the most vulnerable children are ending up at home without any education in increasingly large numbers.

The education system as a whole is not prioritising high needs children. The solution of moving Sen children on to a fictional 'somewhere else, that's not here' cannot always be the solution. It seems to be the only solution at the moment and it's the most vulnerable who end up ultimately pushed out.

I

Sorry zzzz I know Sen in AIBU is usually a bad idea.
I was posting in an aim to be supportive of Sen, if offering a slightly different perspective.
I didn't mean to make it harder for anyone.

BabyItsAWildWorld

I agree with all of that.
I wasn't disagreeing with the entire content of your post - just trying to explain why sometimes parents will actively seek an option away for mainstream that is entirely about finding the right sort of setting and nothing to do with hiding them away or the other stuff that appeared upthread.

High needs support is deteriorating and our kids are so incredibly vulnerable.
I recognise I was lucky.

Pagwatch just trying to explain why sometimes parents will actively seek an option away for mainstream that is entirely about finding the right sort of setting and nothing to do with hiding them away or the other stuff that appeared upthread.

Totally agree and understand this.

Pagwatch,

I think that excellent specialist provision CAN be very valuable - IF it is what the parents want, if it has been done with the advice and involvement of all professionals involved with that child, and if it is genuinely the best setting available for their child.

However, nobody, specifically not other parents, should demand that a child MUST be sent to a specialist school 'because they shouldn't be in mainstream' or 'because their presence in mainstream is deleterious to my child'.

And even worse, a child shouldn't be 'lost' between mainstream and specialist provision because there is not enough money or not enough provision - so much 'elective home education' of SEN children is very far from truly being the choice of the parent.

Of course Can't

The discussion is getting a bit circular now. That was never something I was agreeing with - entirely the opposite.

And almost all the children with SN being homeschooled that I personally know are exactly the kids whose needs were not met by the choice of provision or massive gaps in the support.

It dreadful and it's getting worse because so many children with disabilities are effectively voiceless and the parents are mostly exhausted

Children with SEMH are a different kettle of fish to those with ADHD/ASD etc. In my experience they really do need a lot of pastoral nurturing support due to traumatic experiences that they have experienced or are still experiencing (in some cases ongoing parental neglect).

Using my class as an example and the third that are SEN (ASD, ADHD Dyslexia, processing disorders and SEMH), are we talking 10 TAs so they all have a chance to reach their potential? If not where is the line drawn? Who gets TA support, who doesn't? Some of these kids can't wait for support and it causes a melt-down or they cause distraction.