Abortion ...genuinely interested if you are Pro life.....

[Foxy333]

I was undecided, not sure. Then I read this article with example ( pro-choice article) of how to tell if society really does/ or should/ value the life of an embryo the same as an adult or child.

It said imagine you are in a burning building and gave to get out . Next to you is a 2 year old toddler and a small fridge in which 5 embryos or test tube babies post-conception are stored. Building could be an IVF clinic. You can climb out the window of the building but only time to save either the toddler or save the small fridge with embryos in.

Which do you save and which more important?? Those embryos would be massively wanted by some couple going through ivf, could be their last chance at parenthood. Which is more important for you to save.

It made me think. I think the unborn baby does have some rights but a born living child.....Not sure you can say they are equal. How many people would save the fridge with more potential living people in it and leave the 2 year old. I know its hyperthetical but am genuinely interested in others views.

@JurgensCakeBaby

Did you actually just compare terminating a collection of cells not yet viable as a baby, with slavery?!?!?

Abortion is not only the terminating of a collection of cells, though. That's the problem. You can get an abortion until what - 24 weeks? At 24 weeks it isn't a collection of cells, it's a fully formed, moving baby that could survive if born at this age! I find it shocking that you would consider the death of a babies on a mass scale to NOT be comparable to a similar tragedy such as slavery? If these babies were all born prematurely and died it would be considered heartbreaking, but it's like if the mother doesn't want the baby then it's no problem that it's died, no big deal, not an issue. Like the baby doesn't exist outside of it's mother's opinion.

Like I said, I'm not anti-abortion up until the point where the baby is still physically a collection of cells, but at a certain point it stops being a collection of cells and is a real baby you're getting rid of.

@susiebob

What a ridiculous thing to say. OBVIOUSLY I wouldn't? This is a conversation about how we feel about abortions. NONE of us are talking about our own personal bodies alone, we are all discussing what we consider to be morally right concerning abortions in general.

It's odd that you think nobody gets to make the decision on behalf of anyone else, yet presumably it's okay to let a baby that could survive die based on their mother's desires.

I personally consider a baby that could survive if born to be their own person with their own interests who we could probably assume wants to live.

It's all very sad.

If you were to look at the statistics for terminations, you would find that very few indeed take place at 24 weeks or later. And none of those will have been a decision made for shits and giggles.
But you clearly have little idea what you are bleating about, so emote away.

@MadameGazellee at that point out doesn't and can't exist outside of its mother, that's the point. Scientifically it's essentially a parasite. If you are anti abortion that's up to you, but to compare women terminating pregnancies for all manner of complex reasons, to slavery (peak Mumsnet), shows you have no real cogent argument.

FWIW I've never had a termination, and until I'm in that situation have no idea if I would or wouldn't, it would be very context dependent. What I do know is I don't judge women for making choices about their bodies.

Full disclosure, I am pro choice.

I watch Dr Mama Jones on YouTube, she’s a gyno/Obyn in the USA. She talks in depth about the Texas abortion restrictions in one video. She mentions how she grew up in the deep Bible Belt and was always pro life believingg life started at conception until studying medicine. The more she learned / became educated the more she was able to differentiate that an embryo wasn’t actually a life yet.

I thought it was an interesting take on it. I don’t believe life begins at conception but then when does it? But ultimately the life & choices of the living women, must come first. No one should be able to coerce a woman into birth or abortion

[quote MadameGazellee]@susiebob

What a ridiculous thing to say. OBVIOUSLY I wouldn't? This is a conversation about how we feel about abortions. NONE of us are talking about our own personal bodies alone, we are all discussing what we consider to be morally right concerning abortions in general.

It's odd that you think nobody gets to make the decision on behalf of anyone else, yet presumably it's okay to let a baby that could survive die based on their mother's desires.

I personally consider a baby that could survive if born to be their own person with their own interests who we could probably assume wants to live.

It's all very sad.[/quote]
Yes you are.

If you support reducing the limit on abortion to 8-10 weeks you are enforcing your opinion that abortion is bad on women whom you have never met and never will meet.

I have no issue at all with people who don't like abortion and who wouldn't have one, it's a very personal thing. What I do take an immensely strong dislike to is to people who seek to take away my and other people's right to make that choice based on their own circumstances that pro-lifers have no insight to whatsoever. As you say it's a moral choice, but pro-lifers think the only moral that matters is what they believe in.

It's not pro-life as is frequenty says, it's anti-choice. It's pro-women-seeking-unsafe-abortions-and-potentially-dying-from-them. It's head in the sand and pretend everything is fine when the reality is abortion is a necessary evil for many women and I have absolutely no time for anyone who seeks to take that right away.

@MushMonster

This example has nothing, I mean nothing, to do with abortion. The embryos is a fridge are not implanted and happily growing in a womb. They are not alive.

Are you seriously saying an embryo is not alive, @MushMonster ?

Seriously?

You don’t need to compare abortion to slavery, mainly because it doesn’t compare on any level. Slavery involves two independent human persons, one subjugating the other. Pregnancy is one independent person with one biological dependent. People have autonomy, so if someone doesn’t have the right to someone else’s blood, bone marrow, or organs, they shouldn’t have the right to someone else’s womb either (which doesn’t even begin to touch on the colossal, and indeed dangerous, impact of pregnancy on the whole body).

The reality is that if you restrict abortion, women suffer and women die. One of the leading causes of death for women worldwide is unsafe abortion. If you don’t care about that then say so, don’t try to hide behind poorly thought out comparisons to slavery.

@30whatacrock

It’s a ridiculous comparison. No one with a brain would save a fridge of embryos rather than a live child.

It isn't ridiculous at all. Pro-livers usually believe 'live begins at conception'. Embryos are conceived.

@whumpthereitis

You don’t need to compare abortion to slavery, mainly because it doesn’t compare on any level. Slavery involves two independent human persons, one subjugating the other. Pregnancy is one independent person with one biological dependent. People have autonomy, so if someone doesn’t have the right to someone else’s blood, bone marrow, or organs, they shouldn’t have the right to someone else’s womb either (which doesn’t even begin to touch on the colossal, and indeed dangerous, impact of pregnancy on the whole body).

The reality is that if you restrict abortion, women suffer and women die. One of the leading causes of death for women worldwide is unsafe abortion. If you don’t care about that then say so, don’t try to hide behind poorly thought out comparisons to slavery.

Forcing a woman to be pregnant and give birth against her will is Gestational Slavery.

@JunoMcDuff

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It might be a zombie thread, but the topic will always be valid, especially now with what is happening with abortion rights in America.

That is indeed a more accurate comparison, @TheGirlCat

As for an earlier point in regards to the ‘abortion lobby’ censoring pro life options. You mean, proponents of women’s rights don’t promote them denying access to a viable option for women? Or support them in spreading spurious lies about lifetime regret and breast cancer? Of course they don’t, and nor should they.

@JurgensCakeBaby

Did you actually just compare terminating a collection of cells not yet viable as a baby, with slavery?!?!?

If you don't understand why forcing a woman to remain pregnant and give birth against her will IS Gestational Slavery, I don't know what to tell you @JurgensCakeBaby .

Only a tiny proportions of abortions are performed at 24 weeks and a massive portion of those will be wanted babies with life limiting or life threatening conditions.
Some babies can survive outside of the womb from 22 weeks with massive amouts of medical intervention.
No baby can survive without someone to care and tend to them even at full term.
Non of the pro life protestors ive ever seen are stepping up to do that.
Babies and children need round the clock care for at least 10 years just to keep them alive. To thrive they need much longer.
Ive never had an abortion, never needed one.
If I did get preganant now it would be an option I'd seriously consider. Not because my life would be in danger.
My mental health might be, my financial and job security certainly would be, not wanting to carry, birth and care for a baby would be reason enough.
Obviously I do everything I can to make sure I dont have to make that decision but I'm lucky to be educated and have the resources to access reliable contraception and not to be in an abusive relationship.
Thats my choice about my body and my life.
Dont like abortion? Dont have one.
Dont think abortion should be available after 6, 8, 10, 12 or 24 weeks? dont have one.
But don't put other womens lives in danger with your sanctimonious shit about life.
Womens lives matter too.

@User310

I am pro choice but I really wish they would lower the limit on when you can choose to have one unless on medical grounds. Overall it would sit with me much better if the limit was 10-12 weeks.

@User310 @MadameGazellee 12 weeks some people have only realised they are pregnant. It is too early. Also, At 10 weeks it is little bigger than a blood clot. There is no developed brain stem (thus no nerves, thus no sentience), no sentience. It is not a baby. It doesn't begin to feel pain until late second trimester. That is when the cut off should be, when sentience comes in (about 23 weeks).

I am pro-choice. However, I think we gloss over the details of termination and use alternative words to remove ourselves from the reality. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of women opt for abortions totally unprepared for the reality.

I have not had an unwanted pregnancy, but someone I know found herself pregnant (being vague to protect her anonymity). I am unclear on the details of the procedure, but she took some pills and passed the foetus naturally. She had expected it to come out 'as a blob' (her words) but it was a fully-formed foetus with a face and fingers and toes.

I don't think she ever got over that experience.

@MadameGazellee

I don't think that's a very good comparison as nobody is asking anyone to choose a foetus OVER a living baby or child.

I too have mixed feeling on abortion. As you did ask, my thoughts are that they should only be available up to a certain number of weeks - I start to see the foetus as a baby after around 12 weeks, so that would be the point I start to struggle with the concept.

I feel that allowing abortions up until the point where the baby could survive if born at this age is absolutely horrifying, barbaric, brutal, disgusting... There aren't enough words to describe how awful I think this is.

No one goes through 24 weeks of; weight gain, back ache, nausea and vomiting, dehydration/hospitalisation from constant vomiting, high blood pressure, nose bleeds, fluid on the organs, preeclampsia etc etc etc etc to suddenly decide after all these months to have an abortion.

It just doesn't happen @MadameGazellee so your point is redundant/null and void. Abortion at the time of survival is ONLY ever done due to fetal abnormality/risk to the mother. So your hypothetical point really as I said redundant and null and void. It just doesn't happen.

@Jacaranda75

I am pro-choice. However, I think we gloss over the details of termination and use alternative words to remove ourselves from the reality. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of women opt for abortions totally unprepared for the reality.

I have not had an unwanted pregnancy, but someone I know found herself pregnant (being vague to protect her anonymity). I am unclear on the details of the procedure, but she took some pills and passed the foetus naturally. She had expected it to come out 'as a blob' (her words) but it was a fully-formed foetus with a face and fingers and toes.

I don't think she ever got over that experience.

Wow that would disturb you. Women should be fully informed on issues like that.

I think there is far more emphasis on what abortion is tbh, it certainly isn’t ‘glossed over’ more than the risks associated with pregnancy are.

A couple more lazy tropes from earlier in this thread: having an abortion isn’t contradictory to ‘maternal instinct’. For a start, women have been having abortions for as long as they’ve been giving birth. I believe it was the Romans who sent a plant into extinction through using it as an abortifacient. It’s not new. Also, the vast majority of women who have abortions, are already mothers. A woman who happily plans and accepts one pregnancy, can reject another. It has no bearing on her ability as a mother.

And sadly, I’ve encountered more than one woman, and indeed teenage girl, that’s had an abortion in secret and without the support of her family, because she knows that she wouldn’t get support in her choice. She may get ‘support’ in continuing the pregnancy, and find herself emotionally blackmailed and bullied into doing so, but that’s not actually helping her make her own free choice as to what SHE wants to do now, is it?

A pro life mother may proclaim ‘my daughter would never! She would come to me and I would help her!’, but the reality is that the child of a pro lifer usually knows it’s a better bet to repeat the parent’s opinion back to them, and if they do find themselves choosing abortion, will do it in secret.

Hi all. This thread is a few years old and it was reopened by a previously banned poster who we've now sent on their way.
We'll close this one in a mo but feel free to start a new thread.