Abortion ...genuinely interested if you are Pro life.....

[Foxy333]

I was undecided, not sure. Then I read this article with example ( pro-choice article) of how to tell if society really does/ or should/ value the life of an embryo the same as an adult or child.

It said imagine you are in a burning building and gave to get out . Next to you is a 2 year old toddler and a small fridge in which 5 embryos or test tube babies post-conception are stored. Building could be an IVF clinic. You can climb out the window of the building but only time to save either the toddler or save the small fridge with embryos in.

Which do you save and which more important?? Those embryos would be massively wanted by some couple going through ivf, could be their last chance at parenthood. Which is more important for you to save.

It made me think. I think the unborn baby does have some rights but a born living child.....Not sure you can say they are equal. How many people would save the fridge with more potential living people in it and leave the 2 year old. I know its hyperthetical but am genuinely interested in others views.

These threads really ought to be locked so they can’t be bumped for spurious purposes.

@Mashandbangers

I fell preganant in my early 20’s in a relationship that was only a few weeks old (and wouldn’t go on to last), living hundreds of miles away from my family, sharing a flat and in a job that paid 14k a year. I wasn’t irresponsible, we’d used a condom which split. I then got the morning after pill. Hey ho still got pregnant. I’ve never wanted children, and I would have massively resented the child. Not a nice thing to say, but it’s honest. I don’t, and have never, regretted my decision. I’d have been a terrible mother to an unwanted child. I don’t know if that falls under that my termination was for ‘mental health’ as it would have been incredibly debilitating for me to continue a pregnancy I didn’t want. My EMA was at 6weeks and 6days, the embryo wasn’t even a fetus. So in a way I suppose I’m one of those wicked women who did it as a ‘lifestyle choice’ 🤷‍♀️

Same. I had a split condom and failed MAP. I have never once regretted my abortion, nor was I traumatised or damaged by it. The only thing I ever fleetingly think about it is “thank fuck I don’t now have a 7 year old”.

I don’t want a child. I’m quite certain if I had one I would deeply regret it. I don’t want to be a mother, I don’t want to put my needs and wants behind anyone else’s, and while I don’t plan on accidentally getting pregnant again contraception can fail and I’d have another abortion if I needed one. Don’t like abortions? Don’t have one. Let everyone else make their own decision. It’s bonkers to me that anyone could consider a half-formed being with little to no sentience that lives off a woman’s body to have any rights at all, let alone more than the woman carrying it.

@PurpleDaisies

How many people would save the fridge with more potential living people in it and leave the 2 year old

Nobody.

It’s a ridiculous question.

Quite. A nonsensical comparison.

I really like the 'Don't like abortions? Ignore them. Like you ignore unwanted, neglected children and the struggling care system' quote.

@PurpleDaisies

These threads really ought to be locked so they can’t be bumped for spurious purposes.

Agreed, especially after the resurrectionist got deleted.

Also, I didn't get a zombie alert.

As for pro-life, yes I am. But if the life of the mother is at risk, I would favour saving the mother.
I would not condemn in any way anyone choosing differently, for any reason. It is not up to me to judge, just to emphathise.
I do say to my DD, given the circumstances, think about the massive psychological implications. Many are scarred for life. They feel guilty having children later on and so on. We are built to love our babies. I do think that the burden is higher by stopping the pregnancy that by facing the social or financial implications of an unwanted pregnancy.

I have no idea why my message was deleted..
I was very careful in choosing my words and simply presented standard pro-life arguments from an ethical perspective. Would be grateful if MN could tell me why such arguments breach their talk guidelines. The only thing I can think of is that I said I had watched videos of abortions and concluded that the majority of people likely don't understand what the procedure actually involves. I don't see what's wrong with that? People are free to say they have seen such footage and indeed still support abortio. Or can we only discuss abortion in code and not actually allude to the fact that it is a real invasive procedure?
I'm actually baffled. I've never experienced censorship like this, even on staunchly pro-abortion platforms.

I think a better way to look at it is the difference in the levels of aggression directed at women who have abortions in the very early stages of pregnancy, compared to couples who opt not to use all of their embryos created for IVF. Most people are extremely understanding of the latter, even if not the former.

Ultimately I think the most sensible view is that no-one should ever be forced to have an abortion, or not have an abortion. It should be done as early as possible, but in some cases also as late as necessary to prevent undue suffering (termination for medical reasons being included in abortion even though I think it's probably quite different).

I don't know many people who are anti-choice. I know some who would never have one themselves (or feel that they never would) and as long as there's no desire to restrict other people from doing it, I think that's a perfectly respectable view.

The only kind of anti-choice person I find abhorrent are the ones who seek to make it inaccessible for other women, while doing nothing to help those who are struggling with their kids.

I wanted to see if Mumsnet was a majority pro-choice platform, as that's the impression I had. So I searched this question and found this thread. I added my opinion for future searches, to diversify the pool of opinions. I don't see what's wrong with that.
I also have no idea why my message was deleted, but if it is to send a message that people who are unapologetically pro-life are not welcome on MN then I don't know if I want anything to do with the site anymore (thus the ocean of monochrome views can happily continue).

@ApplesPears6712

I wanted to see if Mumsnet was a majority pro-choice platform, as that's the impression I had. So I searched this question and found this thread. I added my opinion for future searches, to diversify the pool of opinions. I don't see what's wrong with that. I also have no idea why my message was deleted, but if it is to send a message that people who are unapologetically pro-life are not welcome on MN then I don't know if I want anything to do with the site anymore (thus the ocean of monochrome views can happily continue).

Start your own thread. Bumping old threads is poor form.

I'm pro-life, but the example given isn't really relevant... I would of course save the toddler, but it doesn't have anything to do with the debate.

Surely a better question would be if you were early stages pregnant and were diagnosed with cancer would you save yourself with chemo or put off the chemo to save the embryo even though it may kill you or cause you harm?

It looked like I was in this situation in my first pregnancy. I was absolutely willing to risk my life in order to save the baby's. In the end, the same operation saved both of us.

Would you adopt a child from someone who went through an unwanted pregnancy? If not, what would you suggest the mother do?

Yes. My husband and I would happily adopt a baby rather than see him or her aborted.

I know other families who would be willing to adopt an unwanted baby, and I have prolife friends who volunteer with an organisation who help woman with unwanted pregnancies, through their pregnancy and for subsequent months and years, as long as needed.

Before accepting someone else's baby, I'd obviously want to know if there were ways to support them in keeping their baby, though. I know if several examples where women have changed their minds because of this kind of support, and none (personally) where a woman has given up her child after giving birth to him or her.

I didn't want to do that, because as an OP voicing my pro-life opinions I knew I'd be verbally lynched. But I thought just adding one comment to a pre-existing thread would be fine - rather than making my argument the centre of a whole discussion

Life, yes. Birth, not necessarily.

Sorry to split hairs, but I don’t think forced birthers should be called “pro life”, as though those who support a woman’s choice are anti life. It’s usually pro / forced birthers who don’t give a shit about the child once it’s born and always want to cut benefits, healthcare etc

Although I would never have an abortion under any circumstances, I believe it's up to the individual to make their own choice.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Life, yes. Birth, not necessarily.

Sorry to split hairs, but I don’t think forced birthers should be called “pro life”, as though those who support a woman’s choice are anti life. It’s usually pro / forced birthers who don’t give a shit about the child once it’s born and always want to cut benefits, healthcare etc

That's not true. There are many pro-life organisations and centres that provide loads of support to expectant mothers to give them an alternative to abortion - food, childcare, supplies, financial help, counselling. But they are consistently targeted and censored by the abortion lobby.

I have no respect for pro lifers at all.

They can't even decide between themselves what they deem acceptable and not and they don't give a shit about the children resulting from these pregnancies they guilt people into keeping.

I hear lots of them say "I don't agree with abortion unless it's in the case of rape" but surely if your pro life it shouldn't matter how the fetus was conceived.

They are just a bunch of sanctimonious hypocrites imo.

Sorry to split hairs, but I don’t think forced birthers should be called “pro life”, as though those who support a woman’s choice are anti life. It’s usually pro / forced birthers who don’t give a shit about the child once it’s born and always want to cut benefits, healthcare etc

Are you talking in a UK context? Because that doesn't describe most of the pro life people I know. On the whole they're characterised by being people who do a lot to help others, both in formal voluntary roles and privately.

A far higher proportion of the pro lifers I know are involved in giving this kind of support, than pro-choicers.

I don't know that many people who think benefits are too high. But the majority of them are strongly pro choice.

Yes, that's anecdotal. But I'd be interested to know where your contrasting impression came from.

I am very firmly pro-choice but somehow the statistic that 1 in 4 pregnancies in the UK is aborted makes me uneasy / sad.

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

I have no respect for pro lifers at all.

They can't even decide between themselves what they deem acceptable and not and they don't give a shit about the children resulting from these pregnancies they guilt people into keeping.

I hear lots of them say "I don't agree with abortion unless it's in the case of rape" but surely if your pro life it shouldn't matter how the fetus was conceived.

They are just a bunch of sanctimonious hypocrites imo.

I know what I would "deem acceptable", which I apply only to myself. Have I and would I ever try to force my opinion on someone else? No. I wouldn't discuss it unless someone directly asked me, even then I would only give my opinion. I don't think anyone apart from my partner and mum know my opinion on this.

Others on the more recent posts have said the same as I would - they'd never have an abortion but respect that others might. Hypothetically, if I were in charge of all the laws in the country, I still wouldn't outlaw abortion because the majority in the UK think it should be an option.

"Pro life" give me a break.they are a very nasty bunch of people,who support death penalty.

I have no respect for pro lifers at all.

They can't even decide between themselves what they deem acceptable and not

I've never heard this criticism before. It baffles me a little. I'd say, on the whole, that there's as much unity amongst pro lifers than pro choicers.

Pro lifers are mostly in favour of stopping abortion entirely. Some would make an exception for rape. Some would campaign for reducing limits (eg to 16 weeks) because they think its more achievable, but they would still ultimately prefer it to be banned.

Some pro choicers want to make abortion available at any point until the baby is in the birth canal, others want reduced or extended limits.

There's a very small number in the US who are arguing for post-birth abortion in the hours after birth if the baby is very disabled. I've never heard anyone in the UK argue for that and I suspect that most of my pro choice friends and family would be as appalled by that as I am.

"and they don't give a shit about the children resulting from these pregnancies they guilt people into keeping*

This point has been refuted by me and others above. Nearly all the foster carers I know, over half of the adoptive parents I know, 4/5 of the food back volunteers I know (and I could go on and on with the list) hold pro-life views.

I hear lots of them say "I don't agree with abortion unless it's in the case of rape" but surely if your pro life it shouldn't matter how the fetus was conceived.

I agree. A life is a life, and it's precious and deserving of life no matter how horrific the circumstances around conception. By the way, I'm a rape survivor - as an adult and as a girl.

They are just a bunch of sanctimonious hypocrites imo.

Well, yes, I quite possibly am, and worse. But if by this you mean that people who are anti-abortion only care about and help the unborn, then I'd have to argue that I have entirely the opposite experience.

Pro lifers could literally have handed me a cheque for a million pounds, a full time nanny and a mansion and I STILL would have had an abortion. Of course there should be unbiased support for women who are undecided about their pregnancy or want the baby but have financial/mental health/physical etc issues (free childcare would go a long way to help women in many aspects) but this kind of support pro-life people talk of isn’t given in an unbiased way is it? Especially when the offers of such support come from people hanging about intimidating women outside abortion clinics.

I do say to my DD, given the circumstances, think about the massive psychological implications. Many are scarred for life. They feel guilty having children later on and so on. We are built to love our babies. I do think that the burden is higher by stopping the pregnancy that by facing the social or financial implications of an unwanted pregnancy.

About 5% of women regret having an abortion, I think it's estimated at. Not scarred for life. Regretful.
What you're telling your daughter is inaccurate and irresponsible.

Abortion is such an emotive issue.

20 years ago I had an abortion. The option to keep the baby wasn’t even presented to me….I was just swept up in the situation and somehow I went from telling my mum I was pregnant to then finding myself at an abortion clinic and I don’t really even know how it happened.

After the abortion I felt relief for a few weeks and then the absolute guilt kicked in and for many years I went on a complete self destructive downwards spiral because I couldn’t bear to think about what I had done. I would have been about ten weeks pregnant when i terminated and I find it really hard to think about. I would say it took about 5-6 years before I could finally put it behind me….yet 20 years later I still remember the date I had the termination and the baby’s due date. I remember everything single last detail about the building, the things people said to me, how I felt beforehand, how I felt afterwards and how I had to sit in a room with many other women forcing myself to have a cup of tea and a slice of toast because I couldn’t go home until I had done that. It was an extremely distressing time of my life and as I’m writing this I’m crying as I re-live it.

I am pro-choice but abortion is not always the easy answer and I imagine for a lot of women (not all) it’s something they find very hard to ever put behind them.

It’s a ridiculous comparison. No one with a brain would save a fridge of embryos rather than a live child.