To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?

[flibbertyfive]

Because that's what's now happening, very soon.

PS According to the civil servants I know, it will be utter chaos - there has been literally basically no preparation for this at all. Because the bloody politicians can't make up their minds for what they want/expect to happen. So there are no contingency plans whatsoever.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

The power from our parliaments now sits in Berlin

Incorrect. Don’t be ridiculous. First of all the EU Parliament sits in Brussels.
Second of all you can vote in EU elections as to who represents you in the EU.

Thirdly, our public services are not under huge pressure due to immigration alone.

The biggest problems we actually have is the ageing population and obesity plus all the associated diseases (diabetes etc).

The other biggest problem is that wealth is too concentrated in a small population. There isn’t no trickle down effect.

Housing is expensive. We aren’t running out of houses, we are running out (or have run out) of cheap housing. So this isn’t about lots of people taking our homes, it’s about government completely failing to do something about making housing affordable.

I recognise all of the issues, but I don’t lie the blame at the feet of the EU.

Advisory? As a referendum it was advisory, although David Cameron said whatever the result it would be implemented.

However, Parliament voted to accept the advice and it passed the EU Withdrawal Bill (September 17?).

Also to add Farage said (I think before the referendum) if the result is close in favour of Remain he would continue to campaign to leave.

oh to live in a nice little bubble where all I have to worry about not being able to take my foreign holidays twice a year!

You really blame the EU for your relative poverty? Brexit is not going to solve your problems. Far from it. I can understand your anger at such inequity, but your anger is misdirected.

Sorry for the terrible typos etc. Suffering from hay fever here and hit send without checking.

It’s precisely the attitude of those people continuing to behave as though this was an intramural volleyball championship - “We won; you lost!” “Get over it!” Move on!” - rather than an irrevocable vote affecting the whole country for hundreds of years, that make me more firmly convinced they shouldn’t be allowed out unaccompanied, let alone allowed to vote. You ‘get over it’ when the bloke you like off Holby City doesn’t win Strictly, not when something which has a dangerously adverse effect upon you, your family, and your country, is made possible by lies, self-aggrandizement, and abject stupidity.

I also think as a movement on the whole (not every individual who voted remain), the remain campaign has some responsibility to bear. Instead of opening a dialogue, those voting brexit were insulted and villainised. How easy it is to change your position if the people expecting you to are the same ones calling you stupid, a bigot, selfish and telling you that the things you care about aren't important?

(This isn't directed at the OP or anyone else on this thread in particular.)

the remain campaign has some responsibility to bear

I agree for different reasons. It was very patronising from remain.

Believeitornot

Surely you are not expecting us all to believe that Merkel isn't the one calling all of the shots in the EU??

You are beginning to sound incredibly dishonest.

Germany is running the EU, not Brussels. That is simply a building. The power structures start and finish in Berlin. The decisions made for the whole of the EU are decided and made in Germany. Germany has benefited hugely from the euro and as the most wealthy country wields that power without flinching.

I did not vote for Juncker. I did not vote for Merkel to run the EU.

And this is where your democratic argument collapses. The EU can never and will never be truly democratic.

The thing is Shrimpi that the leave campaign was led (in all but name) by Farage - a selfish, hypocritical, bigoted, racist villain and 52% chose to side with him. Ultimately the remain campaign had little to go on as they were defending the status quo, whereas leave had the backdrop of the gap between rich and poor to rely on - an emotive and motivational impetus. The wherewithal was with them to prove the case for change - and they did that very effectively by lying and misleading.

The EU parliament is elected.
ALL 'laws' proposed by the EU are previously debated then voted on by all members then ratified by the individual countries and enforced by the individual countries. Opt outs for some conditions are available.
Thus practically every 'law' that has come from the EU was voted for by a UK politician (MEP). Seems quite democratic to me.
Mr Barnier and the 'EU crew' are simply acting like 'mother' waiting for 'tantrum child' Britain to stop messing about.
There is no way Europe would really become a true federation as although French/German/Dutch and all the others work pretty harmoniously together none would attempt to force a change of identity on any other. Sovereignty and immigration (to a great extent) are not EU 'issues' so should not have been used in the referendum.
The leavers may have won the vote but the whole country has lost, at least for this generation.

Personally, I feel that our bloody useless Politicians should be taken out & shot - rather than working together to come up with the best outcome for the UK they've continued playing their stupid fucking games.

It's their fault it's going to be a Hard Brexit - they're the only ones responsible for negotiations. If they'd presented a united front for the good of us all we'd be in a much better place.

I voted Leave and would again - but I naively thought our elected representatives were up to the job.....

I blame the devaluation of voting brought on by reality shows and the expectations that someone else will sort your mess out.

This is where I struggle . More people voted to leave the EU than voted to remain in the EU. As I have mentioned the question posed to those voting was very simple remain, or leave ? If you voted leave , then you voted to leave the EU in all its entirety that is what the question meant . As this is not what is actually happening how can you claim victory ?

54321go The EU parliament and all the bureaucrats feeding from it were not elected by me I can assure you!

Nor you. Juncker was elected by other EU bureaucrats all unknown to us.

Merkel was voted by the germans and she is opening running the EU. There have been very little attempts to make the EU more accountable.
Why didn't they change when they could see there was a mounting problem?

Rather than bang on at the leavers - why not consider what the EU could have done to stop this happening in the first place?

not when something which has a dangerously adverse effect upon you, your family, and your country, is made possible by lies, self-aggrandizement, and abject stupidity.

People are entitled to vote for what they wish - the pathetic half arsed way it's been carried out is solely the fault of the politicians.

Pointless blaming some bloke in East Anglia who has lost his job because of imported Fruit Pickers for the downfall of the country - you're better off blaming your elected representatives for not doing their job.

How many of you that are blaming all this on a tick in a box nearly 2 years ago have written to your MPs telling them to stop fucking around & to work together to negotiate the best possible deal for the UK??

Yeah, though not. Easier to have a pop on MN....

As this is not what is actually happening how can you claim victory ?

Exactly, I want my money back....

people keep going on about JLR and their 'move'. Well as someone who currently works out of a JLR depot in solihul I can tell you this is yet more project fear rubbish.

The factories are not moving. In fact they are having more invested in them. What is happening is one car which isn't being produced yet will be produced elsewhere.

Interestingly - the trade of landrovers/rangerovers are more likely to be sold outside the EU rather than within it... And the weakening of the £ makes it cheaper for a chinese or american to buy one. So actually brexit is helping production.

Once we stop buying VW's then the Germans will realise just what a great consumer we were. And will regret us leaving massively.

I see the whole of the EU project falling apart - and the wheels will fall off.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

What utter bollocks - you cannot blame those who voted leave for the ineptitude of those in public office!

They've had 2 years to sort things out and come up with proper plans, including contingencies. No one voted leave with the expectation that fuck all would happen and it would be the shambles it's turning into, but that's the thing with a democratic society - we're supposed to able to trust those voted into office to carry out the will of the people IN A PROPER MANNER.

Typical remainer toys out the pram attitude.

Still no answer from any remoaners that Merkel is running the EU, unelected by any of us.

The EU super state is coming next......well actually it is already here if Italy doesn't drop its bollocks and go bankrupt before it can be finalised.

Wake up remoaners, this is not about you and your cosy little holidays and french speaking au pairs. This is about the future of our children and granchildren being able to shape their own country and make their own decisions.

We live in a democracy, and that above all else takes priority for without that we have truly lost everything.

The way the referendum was conducted was a very pale imitation of democracy. Democracy is a lot more complicated than winner takes all and the loser sucks it up. That referendum was appalling conducted and very badly thought-out.

Ireland conducts referenda in a very responsible way. But referenda can be used in very bad ways such as Hitler, so I believe they are banned in Germany. Also the way that the government wants free hand to convert eu law into UK law without going through parliament is not democratic in any way. That thought alone scares the shit out of me.

LittleLionMansMummy

I voted Leave because in the North East there is nothing in my area. My kids will need to leave for a better education, career and life.

I didn't vote Remain so the South can continue to have a better standard of living.

What will hopefully stop is the mass invasion of cheap labour.

Nope. It won't stop. Ttruckdriver, I voted remain.
I understand your personal upset and how cheap labour from abroad has impacted your line of work and employment opportunities.
But cheap labour extends beyond Europe.
The cheap labour will keep on a comin'. That won't stop. But instead of your being upset with the Eastern Europeans, you can direct your anger at another group- pick a card, any card.

LifeBeginsAtGin I live in the south, and I voted to leave because I don't your children to have to leave either. Some people think beyond themselves and their immediate needs and wants, and vote for the greater good of the country in the longer term.

Bollocks. ‘Leave (butonlywithasoftBrexitpleaseandthankyou)‘ wasn’t one of the options on the ballot paper. If you voted ‘Leave’ you did so with no idea how it might be done - but it was clearly worth it to you. Fine. So here we all, with a hard Brexit. God knows I think May is worse than useless, but she’s not the person to blame (much) for this shambollocks. That luncheon-meat faced travesty of a buffoon is long gone, stuffing his bank account with speaking engagement fees and the revenue from his wife’s godawful handbags.

@LittleLionMansMummy

I share your sentiments on Farage and the leave campaign. I do also completely understand the frustration and anger on the remain side, I feel these things myself. Sometimes the resentment I feel toward the older generation (for Brexit and many other things) is almost overwhelming.

But however justified those feelings are, and difficult it is to put them aside, there is nothing to gain from further alienation. People in Britain have to come together in a discourse (in Brexit and many other things) where we don't all just insult one another. For the EU issue I'm sad that it may be a bit too late to do this.