To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?

[flibbertyfive]

Because that's what's now happening, very soon.

PS According to the civil servants I know, it will be utter chaos - there has been literally basically no preparation for this at all. Because the bloody politicians can't make up their minds for what they want/expect to happen. So there are no contingency plans whatsoever.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

Corbyn is not saying very much is he...well and truly ducked out of this one.

I don't understand why people are terrified or describe Brexit Negotiations as a "shitshow". Negotiation at any level is about push/shove and give/take and bluff/forced hand - at International
level you can throw in diplomacy and alliance as well as homeland politics. Party politics is about disagreement, debate and resolution, within political parties this also happens.

That, scared, terrified people is how it works. Only those that can't understand that can be terrified and scared about it.

It's very normal and has been going on for more centuries than I would guess at.

Topcat,

Thank you for the link. I apolgise for calling you a liar. I based my sentiments on what I read in the UK press, The Guardian. At no point in any of their articles did they mention:

A representative who - beyond the respect and consideration that I have for the person - may not be seen as the promoter of a line of reasoning, often manifested, that could probably, or even inevitably, provoke Italy's exit from the Euro

Whilst you are correct on the technical details. It's no wonder that the two parties concerned asked for his impeachment and the reasoning for denying the government formation was at best, tenuous.

How sweet, the paid trolls are getting in a huddle.

Seriously, do you actually believe that we're getting paid or are you just a moron?

Serious question.

Rider It doesn't change who was pushing the president to do such things. Indeed it changes nothing, as we now know the EU is fully prepared to take over other countries at will if they do not get the 'right' results.

Whatever the reason for the President's decision it was not based on the will of the people and he should have been impeached. I think a resignation is long overdue.

This is the explanation from Mattarella in his own words re his decision. He details how the message given externally by the choice of the Finance Minister has to be taken into consideration and goes on to say it needs to be someone who is in line with the programmes the governments were elected on. Savona is someone who has expressed views that could mean leaving the Euro (not in the manifesto) could be a possibilty. Seems fair enough to me! And pretty democratic and within his consitutional rights. And fair to the Italian people considering that peoples mortgages, savings etc are all tied up in euros.

General feeling amongst people I know here in Italy is the markets reaction did pressurise Mattarella but in the end a compromise was found, Savona is still in government and we havent had to return to the polls so think we are a bit off the anarchy someone upthread seems so sure we will see. The Government meanwhile have confirmed they are not looking to leave the Euro or the EU, Savona himself was interviewed on TV yesterday and stated that the euro was not only positive but essential so as much as a lot of people seem to be desperate for the Brexit domino effect they have been promised to finally happen I think they may have to wait a bit longer.

So again, you don't have any evidence for that accusation about the Italian President.

"THe will of the people"

The suggested Economic Minister was not elected either, but an appointee.

Clearly Rider is a man/woman of good character Op, very disingenuous to allude to trolls in a huddle. Especially as some of us have been on MN forever and a day. Very bad form.

Thanks, Banan.

@truckdrive it’s hard to believe that you don’t have a racist bone in your body when you continually use the word ‘invasion’.

It was lovely but I have to go!

Peace and light all

Savona himself was interviewed on TV yesterday and stated that the euro was not only positive but essential

So the man the President used as a scapegoat to stop the government formation is in fact very pro-European.

Something doesn't sit right with that.

as much as a lot of people seem to be desperate for the Brexit domino effect they have been promised to finally happen

yeah, that's not really true, is it?

Whatever the reason for the President's decision it was not based on the will of the people and he should have been impeached. I think a resignation is long overdue.

Rubbish!

It's a coalition govenrment put together after a long period of negotiation. People didnt vote on the basis that Savona would be Finance Minister. Leaving the Euro was not even discussed. So what "will of the people" are you on about? Savona is still in Government. As are 5 Star and the Lega. As per the "will of the people" expressed in the general election. And Mattarella acted completely within his consitutional rights.

@daphine2004 what's wrong with the term 'invasion'? What am I meant to call it?

I've said if I were a Polish or Romanian worked/driver I'd do the same as them.

However let's be very clear - people have died because of this race to the bottom. Working conditions have worstened. And huge numbers of British workers have left a career because they have been forced out due to poverty level wages.

it’s hard to believe that you don’t have a racist bone in your body when you continually use the word ‘invasion

When I saw TV pictures those long lines of "migrants" heading into Germany via Serbia and Hungry and realised that 80% of them were young, working age males I'm afraid the first word I thought of was "invasion"

If those long lines were full of women and children I would have thought something else entirely.

True story.

"yeah, that's not really true, is it?"

It kind of is, not one pro leave party has been elected, and even in Italy they had to take leaving the euro off the manifestos because it wasn't popular.

Le Pen didn't win in France.

The Polish and Hungarian governments were both incumbent prior to the 2016 referendum.

Wilders didn't win in the Netherlands.

The Austrian's elected a far right party as part of their coalition, but also did in the early 2000s.

4 per cent is not marginal we will have to agree to disagree.

When I did my politics degree, a marginal vote was held to be considered anything where the majority was under 10%, because it would only require a 5% swing for the result to change.

It kind of is

No it isn't. Like at it from this view:

Le Pen gained votes in France, she didn't win but the NF vote grew massively. What if that growth continues into the next election.

Same for Wilders, the PVV grew again. The next elections will be interesting.

The Hungarian and Polish governments aren't going anywhere for a long time.

It’s intersting that both Italy & Malta point blank refused to take that boat full of migrants the other day - they basically said ‘fuck off we don’t you’

2 Countries currently members of the lovely EU.

‘Don’t want you’ even

flib are you seriously now trying to equate the people who voted Leave to those that supported Hitler and sadly still do and Hamas supporters simply because we are not immediately calling another referendum?

By your own logic as we held the previous referendum in 1975 and not another one until 2016 surely the next one should be in 2057.

I really wouldn't accuse people of similarity to Hitler with such naivete - you probably don't realize how offensive it is but let me assure it is very offensive to many British people.

But these were supposed to be the elections that brought down the EU, not in 5 years time.

I suspect in 5 years time the anti EU feeling will have lessened somewhat when the UK situation is looked at.

"It’s intersting that both Italy & Malta point blank refused to take that boat full of migrants the other day - they basically said ‘fuck off we don’t you’"

Conflating migrants and refugees, convinient that.

Also forgetting that Italy and Malta ( and Greece) have born much of the brunt of the refugee crisis.

The UK has not taken its fair allocation either, we have effectively said fuck off too.

As I have mentioned the question posed to those voting was very simple remain, or leave ? If you voted leave , then you voted to leave the EU in all its entirety that is what the question meant .

That is only your interpretation. There are others: if a country leaves the the EU, it has met the narrowest interpretation of a yes vote. If it then opts to join a CU/EEA or any of the other myriad of things a country can be in, that is neither here nor there: it has left the EU.