To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?

[flibbertyfive]

Because that's what's now happening, very soon.

PS According to the civil servants I know, it will be utter chaos - there has been literally basically no preparation for this at all. Because the bloody politicians can't make up their minds for what they want/expect to happen. So there are no contingency plans whatsoever.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

"Indeed. Would you be kind enough to be honest with me and tell me why it's in the EU's interest to force a hard Brexit by not being reasonable to separation terms"

Because the UK will not get to have all the benefits of EU membership that it wants to keep, whilst not taking any of the duties that come with it.

BTW 5% of EU GDP is based on trade with the UK

15% of UK GDP is based on trade with the EU.

Who holds the cards?

A totally poor reading of the Greek situation there

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/european-greece-technocrats

Poor reading my arse.

One particular leaver does not even do facts

You can either apologise for that or know that I will simply refuse to converse with you any further and ignore anything and everything you say.

Because the UK will not get to have all the benefits of EU membership that it wants to keep, whilst not taking any of the duties that come with it

Hurray, an answer. What are the duties you speak of? The four pillars?

A4710Rider

Yes very good point that is exactly what has happened in Greece. My friends in Greece call it an EU 'occupation'. The anguish and the poverty is horrendous.
It is my understanding that the bailing out of Italy would be so unpalatable to the German electorate as to topple the government entirely if they were required to bank roll yet another failed state, even if it were technically possible (I am not sure it is) If this were to happen there would be very good reason to think Alternative for Germany may take its place given the fallout.

We saw an attempted coop from the EU in Italy a few weeks ago, it would not surprise me that another attempt will be made. If indeed this happens then the prophecy of doom could well happen in this case. Italy will descend into anarchy very quickly and there could be contagion.

I would think Topcat's hellfire predications for the UK would fade pretty fast watching that unfold in the EU.

Most of us seem to agree that crashing out without a deal would be a disaster, and that Brexit has been poorly handled for the last two years. You'd think that Farage and co would have careful plans relating to customs, citizens' rights, etc. ready to put into action following the referendum - they didn't. They hadn't really planned anything much - which meant they did not have to look into the complexities involved and they could promise unicorns without reproach. The fact is - politicians have let us all down - however you voted. We all want this country to thrive and for our children to have a future full of opportunities. I've read around a lot on Brexit, and nothing I have read has reassured me that it will be positive for this country. What will me and my family gain from Brexit that will make up for us losing our EU rights, losing freedom of movement, price rises, decreased investment in the UK? Blue passports don't interest me, so what else is there?

We saw an attempted coop from the EU in Italy a few weeks ago, it would not surprise me that another attempt will be made

I started a thread on that last week. I think the EU realised they couldn't just assume control so brashly, as they did in Greece, but they certainly showed their hand.

"My friends in Greece call it an EU 'occupation'. The anguish and the poverty is horrendous. "

The anguish and poverty would have been far worse if Greece had defaulted on its debt and come out of the euro.

"We saw an attempted coop from the EU in Italy a few weeks ago, "

The democratically elected President of Italy used the contsitution of italy to stop someone being put into a post who would do something that had not been in the manifestos of either of the elected parties in the coalition.

A4710 - because they are really pissed off that one of their major nett contributors wants to leave, because they are worried they can't support their existing structure without being propped up by the UK's contribution, because that means there will be less for all the EU nations, because it demonstrates that they don't care about the people of their member states.

Nope - can't think of a reason they would sensibly be anything other than reasonable in our sepration terms.

The anguish and poverty would have been far worse if Greece had defaulted on its debt and come out of the euro

They would have reinstated the drachma and would have had control over their finances.

The democratically elected President of Italy used the contsitution of italy to stop someone being put into a post who would do something that had not been in the manifestos of either of the elected parties in the coalition

There was no evidence that either party was going to take the country out of the EU or the Euro.

ghost

I don't know if you mean to do this but your posts to posters sound like you think your talking to the politicians in charge of brexit... We are just people chewing the fat on mumsnet!!

Rider I didn't see your original thread about Italy last week, but you were right to post. It is very very alarming and deeply worrying for all of europe that the EU feel that they have the authority to take over another country.

Greece would have been better to have crashed out of the euro, and reintroduced their currency for sure.

I don't think I can respond to Topcat anymore, I am seriously wondering if he is being paid to be on here spouting out this EU nonsense. No one can seriously believe that the President in Italy could ever be right to ignore the Italian election result and place an EU bureaucrat instead, and that is why they quickly backtracked and yet here Topcat is defending the indefensible. It is utter madness.

The EU will stop at nothing that much we do know.

"They would have reinstated the drachma and would have had control over their finances."

Really? Where would they have got the money from? If you default you can't borrow on the bond market. Would they have just relied on tax payers revenue?

"There was no evidence that either party was going to take the country out of the EU or the Euro."

Except for the article that the proposed economic minister wrote about taking Italy out of the Euro by the back door.

ghost I quoted your own words right back at ya babe. Who are you to presume that either myself or another poster has no experience of aviation or anything else. So get back on track dear and work on the assumption that some posters actually do know about some things.

The conversation has moved on, but why do people not know how the EU works?

Maybe Merkel is thinking up with the laws behind doors, but they still must be voted on by EU Parliament - of which each country is represented by MEPs proportional to the population of the country. MEPs are voted for by the people. We elect 73 MEPs to represent us, 13% of the total.

The U.K. can veto, alone, issues of foreign affairs, tax, justice and EU budget. We decide we don't want it, it doesn't happen. We can buddy up with just a few others to block other (arguably less important) issues.

Out of all the laws passed since 1999, we've voted against 2% of them. 2%! That's it! We're not some weak part of it, far from it. We're not being dictated to. This is a multiplayer partnership and the U.K. almost always gets the way it wants. We also benefit from things not available to other members.

The hyperbole is astounding.

Topcat is defending the indefensible

The EU is an ideology to some left wing people. They love the idea of massive government that can never really be changed (It stops the Tories, see?)

People like Topcat are very dangerous (metaphorically speaking) but I'm not going to let our democracy (which isn't that great, but it's worth keeping over EU democracy) be eroded by people like them.

topcat1980

Italy kind of blows yours and franks idea out of the water that the EU are sitting there bewildered by it all thinking that we are some kind of crazy nation, I don't think europe are remotely bewildered but they are very scared now. And there is a new desperation to their tone.
What I now see is other countries finally waking up to the EU and what it now stands for. I will give you a clue it is no longer peace and prosperity is it!

Except for the article that the proposed economic minister wrote about taking Italy out of the Euro by the back door

Excellent, you'll have a link for that I take it?

bbpp

Is that you Topcat? The hyperbole kind of gives you away.

" So get back on track dear and work on the assumption that some posters actually do know about some things."

I'd encourage you to have a look at what the aviation section of the Government paper Number CBP 7633, 16 April 2018 on Brexit and Transport says on the issue.

Nope not me.

See it was the accurate term to use.

If you can read Italian yes, I have the PDF of it.

However, at the weekend things got far more tangled. Italy’s president Sergio Mattarella – whose role is more than just that of a formal figurehead – provocatively refused to accept Mr Conte’s finance minister, Paolo Savona. He did so on the grounds that the appointment would threaten Italy’s economy and families’ savings, after the bond market reacted with alarm to the borrowing implications of the government-in-waiting’s spending plans. These, he claimed, could provoke Italy’s exit from the eurozone, which, in European law, could become Italy’s exit from the European Union altogether

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/28/the-guardian-view-on-italys-political-standoff-time-for-a-fresh-election

Your fake news won't wash with me, Topcat.

So Topcat is saying the Italian President refused the formation on a new Government because of an article the proposed economic minster wrote suggesting a back door EU exit but the Italian President actually said it was because of the way the markets reacted.

Who to believe, Topcat or the Italian President?

Rider The topcat mentality is terrifying, unquestioning devotion to the EU is like a cult following. It is unnerving. I like to think for all of my support of brexit I can at least see the other side....at least acknowledge it is there, but this EU cult following that we can not leave under any circumstances is disturbing.

Yes we don't have a perfect democracy at all, but I like to think we can improve that with brexit. We can change many things with brexit. Direct democracy would be great for this country.