To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?

[flibbertyfive]

Because that's what's now happening, very soon.

PS According to the civil servants I know, it will be utter chaos - there has been literally basically no preparation for this at all. Because the bloody politicians can't make up their minds for what they want/expect to happen. So there are no contingency plans whatsoever.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

LifeBeginsAtGin - the reason you can live well in Germany in a manual wage job is because unlike here, Germany kept a lid on its housing costs. That has nothing to do with the EU and is because it chose to enact policies on rent caps and banking in Germany that prevented a housing bubble being created in the first place.

The fact that our successive governments in the UK have chosen instead to feed the housing bubble and provide no security for tenants is nothing to do with Germany!

Also, Germany has a fantastic welfare state - Germans pay much higher taxes so get better benefits in return eg highly subsidised childcare, free universities, much cheaper public transport etc.

In this country, we've chosen to elect governments who offer us the opportunities to pay lower tax and privatise and deregulate our public services. So we have to pay more to meet the costs of childcare, university education, public transport etc ourselves. But that's our choice. Germany doesn't set our tax rates or demand that we have the most expensive childcare, public transport costs etc in Europe.

Germany has got nothing to do with the choices UK voters made.

The current British government doesn't even have the British peoples interests at heart. See food banks, Grenfell and Windrush for further details.

The UK could learn alot from Germany, specifically how to have a strong manufacturing base.

For those of you talking about long term gain.....
Can you please be explicit about what this means?

The way I see it, long-term looks like private health care and low quality food by american companies. Less jobs. Thus less imigrants, yes; but no overall gain in jobs for british workers with low qualifications. The reason why the north has suffered is because Uk has shift its economy from being producers to being service providers. No brexit will bring industries back to the north and good jobs, we cannot compete with china, India, etc in that market.

Every country mainly trades with their close neighbours. Us mostly trades with Mexico and Canada. India, China and Japan are happy to trade with each other. We will always be better by trading with Europe, but we just choose to make that more expensive and difficult....

Last but not least. Economies everywhere are having a hard time. Hardly the time to go alone when you are a very small country.

flibbertyfive

Greece have no choice but to stay in the EU as they are shackled to the euro. They would leave in a heartbeat if they could. There is open hostility to the EU in Greece and riots dressed up as protests every week.

Secondly I am not sure how well you know the Spanish economy but the youth unemployment has rocketed to 35%!!

www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

It is only beaten by Greece that is staring at a staggering eye watering 42%!

Italy comes third at 31% and they are voting accordingly as we have seen.

Entire generations of young people have lost all hope of a future thanks to the EU. The whole of Europe's youth have been completely failed by the EU, with the exception of Germany of course, they are doing very well.

Spanish economy is struggling terribly. The government are in disarray and yet you think this is a good thing? You are thanking the EU for this? I will thank the EU for this, but not in the same way as you.

So with this is in mind, is it really any surprise to anyone that the UK voted to leave an EU lead by the German Chancellor (and in your own words) to serve the German people at the expense of all the other countries?

UK farmers benefit from the EU.
55% of UK total income from farming comes from Common Agricultural Policy subsidies. Tories say that they'll maintain it at EU level until 2022 but do you really think that after that they'll support farmers (or the NHS 😜) with that money? Or will we see price rises?

Error number 3 in this thread:

That the Leave faction won by a huge margin. No, it won by 4% of the vote, which means that only 2% of people needed to change their views to change the result.

That is why current investigations into foreign (especially Russian) interference in the Referendum matter so much.

If you've missed hearing about this, I recommend googling Carole Cadwalldr, who has been the main journalist following the trail to Russian collusion. There are no serious investigations going on as it has been shown that the various pro-Brexit groups broke UK laws on electoral funding. This is serious stuff.

Remember also that Leave made it clear that a 48-52 win for Remain would not and should not be accepted as the final word on the matter (Farage's own words before the Referendum). So there is no way that Remainers should accept it either. It is certainly not a clear mandate for any course of action.

Should read there are now serious investigations going on!!

Big difference!

But your kids won't be able to leave the UK to get a better life. Why not? There are a lot of countries that are not EU member states, where one can work - Canada, the US, Australia, NZ, being the English speaking ones, and then there's the EEA states, the Commonwealth etc. The world does not stop at the EU borders.

jasjas1973 I take it you are joking. We hardly need evidence to see that Angela Merkel and her cronies are running the EU, Where have you been for the last five to ten years

Again, that is just your and Express/Mail opinion and not evidence, just as you ve no evidence the Guardian is sponsored by the EU.

You are looking at the EU through the prism of anti EU newspapers/UKIP/JRM etc and your own misconceptions that the UK can once again rule the waves once we are shod of the shackles of the EU

Germany is a powerful industrial country and is a high net contributor but so is the UK or France they all have influence but do not "run the show"
A little Belgium state Parliament almost stopped the Canada trade deal and all 27 states will or wont approve any brexit deal.

Germany has everything to do with why the UK voters voted the way they did, because they are leading the EU into a failed superstate.

54321go - stobarts doesn't have foreign plated wagons. Probably a customer trailer you saw.
You mean the sort with an engine and the characteristic naming on the front. The trailer was a car transporter.
Germany. Usually clean well ordered towns, good infrastructure, generally decent standard of living, some political problems, make cars that 'posh' people buy, even if the diesels are a bit more polluting than the ads say. Many speak English as well or better than many from England.
Britain could have (had) more influence in the EU if it hadn't spent so much effort playing in the corridor and actually got stuck in.
If France and Germany were not so forward thinking about the car industry we would all still have Austin Maxi's.

Error number 4:

That immigration is going to be lowered by Brexit.

No - May herself has said this will probably not be the case.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/theresa-may-interview-no-guarantee-immigration-will-significantly-lower-brexit/

You might want lower immigration, but it's not going to happen, with or without Brexit.

Can leavers offer anything other than vacuous slogans like "failed superstate?"

Re: travel. Yes, you'll still be able to travel to EU countries. It'll just be more bureaucratic and expensive. Two things leavers seem to hate.

@Lua
I don't see a future with less immigrants tbh. I think that we'll end up having more Commonwealth immigration as our economy depends on immigrants (especially in the NHS) I can't see the Tories investing in a future where the U.K. didn't need immigrant labour.

LifeBeginsAtGin - Germany has more immigrants from Eastern Europe than the UK, and a higher overall number of immigrants and % of immigrants of the population, and has done for quite a while.

Germany has a higher rate of progressive taxation and supports its workers, it also has laws about having to have union representation on company boards.

The UK could have had all of this, it has chosen not to. Nothing to do with the EU.

BTW if you live in the North East you actively voted to make yourself poorer and your children's opportunities worse. The North East is the most damaged by any sort of Brexit.

Oh and where do you see all these immigrants from the EU taking up jobs? Cause I don't see them in Newcastle, or Durham, or Sunderland. or Hartlepool.

Out of all of the cities in the NE Newcastle has the highest amount of overall immigrants, but they are mostly from commonwealth countries, and students, but 87% of the popultation are white British. 97 % in Sunderland, 97% in Hartlepool, 97% of Durham.

Trucker - Most JLR products sold in China are made in the Chinese factory.

The rest of the UK car industry will be massively hit by a hard brexit because they rely on pan European supply chains for JIT delivery, and the EU is the main destination of the cars made here. Higher costs of production will mean these car manufacturers will look to move elsewhere.

I also think a lot has to do witht he German pysche/attitude, they do think they are a superior race, they don't suffer fools, they like rules. Not like the UK were every rule is down for discussion and it's against their human rights to do as they are asked.

The German way is to "save now, have later" rather than "have now, pay later" unlike the UK were everyone wants NOW.

asjas1973

So we finally get to it.

Germany is the highest net contributor because it has used the euro to profit German businesses and has eagerly snapped up the role of leader of the EU

Second net contributor in the EU is the UK and do you know how much influence we had - pretty much zero. You would think given we are such a huge contributor we would at least be able to moderate small changes in the EU....erm nope.

David Cameron asked for the most watered down changes, and got nowhere.

So you see Germany has too much influence given their contribution when you compare other counries. It is grossly unjust.

And why should the EU be run by the highest contributor? How is that measured or fair? It means the smallest countries are entirely overlooked and unheard.

Error number 5:

That the only way to reduce immigration is to Leave.

Not true.

There were lots of steps we could have taken within the EU that other EU countries do apply, but our governments chose not to.

We didn't need to leave the EU to lower immigration. We could lower it whilst staying in.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

"we could easily have taken back control of our borders already under European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response.

Other countries, such as Belgium, regularly repatriate thousands of individuals based on this directive. If the public knew we had this ability, perhaps the fear that exists would dissipate. Why is the government not using it, and why is the British public not aware of it?"

jasjas1973 I take it you are joking. We hardly need evidence to see that Angela Merkel and her cronies are running the EU, Where have you been for the last five to ten years

Again, that is just your and Express

My quote was from the Guardian!

Oh and the argument about immigration and our infrastructure is spurious too.

EU immigrants are likely to be young and healthy, and a large number of them moving to an area leads to lower waiting times for surgery and no extra waiting time in A and E, according to Oxford University:

www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/sites/www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/files/documents/BSG-WP-2015-005.pdf

There are 588,0001of EU nationality ( about half actually born here), in UK schools, there are 8.2 million pupils in UK schools, so children of EU nationality make up 7% of the school population yet 88.4% of students get their first choice primary school.

Its hardly causing any impact at all, and their parents will all be tax payers.

Research from UCL and the LSE shows that a fall in EU immigration will not benefit services in the UK, because there will be a subsequent fall in greater fall tax revenue than there would be a fall in demand, reducing funding.

It means the smallest countries are entirely overlooked and unheard.

What do Brexiteers know of other countries? They (other nations) could leave if they wanted. They don't. There is no Brexit domino effect. Europe is watching the UK with bewilderment.

Also how do other EU nations with higher immigration per capita all have higher wage growth than the UK?

David Cameron got everything he wanted apart from a break on immigration.

But some leavers will always fudge the facts.

Now we are talking about the real nub of the issue. The immigration levels (I would gladly see more from the commonwealth) etc etc are irrelevant.

We do NOT want our country to be run by a German Chancellor for the benefit of German business.

We do not want to contribute billions to prop up a failed superstate.

We do not want to sacrifice our infrastructure for unlimited and unchecked immigration.

We do not support the aims of the EU superstate. EU armies, EU banking systems.

Nothing to do with our lovely european neighbours who we love - this is about the EU commission and nothing more or less, and their drive for more and more interference dressed up as integration.

It has to stop somewhere.

also think a lot has to do witht he German pysche/attitude, they do think they are a superior race, they don't suffer fools, they like rules

Reading this I'd assume that the "UK psyche/attitude" (or wherever you happen to be from...) was about stereotyping, arrogance and believing you're able to know and understand the "psyche" of an entire country and it's citizens...

Not like the UK were every rule is down for discussion and it's against their human rights to do as they are asked.

There are actually a lot of worker protection laws and regulations in Germany... And human rights certainly seem to be held in high regard by most politicians. (Probably also due to historical reasons.)