AIBU for hating the Pampas advert thanking midwives.

[ToadsforJustice]

I didn't have a positive experience with any of the MW I had the misfortune of seeing whilst having my DC.

I find the advert really triggering. I don't think I would thank anyone for the misery and pain they caused me.

Notaregular Yes it seemed extraordinary that someone could qualify as a midwife and not have learnt to interpret CTG’s so I certainly wondered about that. More to the point was the lack of supervision of a newly qualified midwife in that particular case which is a huge concern. Getting the online training package definitely needs protected study time and that is one of the measures put in place by the hospital that has turned around its practices. But a quick google search highlights some scary gaps in training, hopefully being addressed now.

I think probably the 18 month conversion course went downhill when the direct entry degree courses took off and I can see that some people may have done what Pingu mentioned to get a band 6 or struggling with autonomy. When 18 months was the only way we had an excellent course, great teachers, lectures from Sheila Kitzinger so definitely woman centred! And we loved the autonomy. Something you could never get as a nurse at that time. So of course there has been lots of change and lots of it for the better. Financial constraints probably present the biggest challenge - from protected learning time to getting sufficient post natal support. It’s great that the new course and Mbracce reports are highlighting mental health and giving training for that, suicide is now classified as a direct maternal death and not “indirect” plus training on things like domestic violence which I never had. So lots of improvements and it is really saddening and shocking to read of some of the experiences discussed on this thread.

I was referring to nurses I worked with 'back in the day'-there seemed to be a divide. This doesn't seem the case with more recently educated MWs!
I think men being allowed to stay is DISGUSTING-DV escalates in pregnancy, and where will a woman with a controlling partner get the space to disclose this? Also, why should women who don't want a partner there or have a partner have to put up with other women's partners. It is totally dehumanising to women wanting to breastfeed, who are bleeding and some who can't even get up alone after a CS yet have a man only behind a curtain.
Women need to rest and can only do so when they can relax. The rights of some women wanting a bloke there does not and should never override a woman who doesn't want to share that space.
Totally wrong. However no doubt it is used by angry women who need them there because all the midwives are crap and they wouldn't receive care without their DPs there, or who couldn't possibly manage to lift a baby or get washed without a man there.

No, that poster said that none of the midwives she had met had been like that in her experience. She is entitled to make that comment and we often work together in twos. We see each other working often.

We aren't after the validation of one angry person, don't worry.

*I was responding to the poster who was whining about it being so offensive that some women spoke up about midwives being UTTERLY AWFUL and unprofessional because she "knew" they weren't. If that wasn't you, why are you getting so het up about it? If you can acknowledge that you have a role and it is only a part of a picture which includes THE CLIENT and other health professionals, great, we're making progress.

But no, I'm not here to make you feel great about your profession as my experience of it was dire. If that offends you, that is your problem.*
You may have cause to be angry but your nastiness and spiteful language is totally out of order. The problem isn't other people's, it is yours, because you are the one being attacking and nasty.
At least keep this as a fair debate and have the decency to respond properly.

I don’t think the partners staying overnight will ever be right for everyone, especially in the absence of single rooms. I had a single room and DH stayed. Thing is m-I-l died unexpectedly shortly before DD was born, her funeral was on my due day. Thankfully I went well overdue, allowing a small window of time to get over the shock a little. Of course DH wanted to stay. But tbh I would have loved some time alone, just me and the baby. My early weeks of motherhood involved a lot of mothering DH. I don’t say that selfishly or with regret apart from the sad loss of a lovely, very dear m-I-l but that is how it was. These things happen sometimes. Of course if it had been suggested he go home that would have put pressure on us and that wouldn’t have been right either. It is a very sensitive time and difficult to get it right all the time for everyone.

Milada: I'm not hugely keen on partners staying as I've said. But every woman I've ever looked after has asked if her partner can stay overnight (the only exceptions being women who want a 6 hour discharge). It's not a minority of women, it's virtually all of them. We can't ignore the wishes of almost all women. They feel they need the support even when we assure them that there are staff to help them.

I'm not sure what the solution is to this, TBH. Given a blank cheque I'd totally re-model PN wards to be entirely private rooms with en suites so women don't have to share space, but we all know that isn't going to happen! And I'd increase the amount of staff, so we can evidence that we have the capacity to support women appropriately.

Mikalada I’m inclined to be with you on the matter of partners staying, especially in rooms with other women. I hadn’t realised it was common practice tbh. And I think, with more knowledge and training about domestic violence it could be a real problem for someone in a controlling relationship. But I can see why some people want their partners and now it’s common I don’t see that one going away!

*I was responding to the poster who was whining about it being so offensive that some women spoke up about midwives being UTTERLY AWFUL and unprofessional because she "knew" they weren't. If that wasn't you, why are you getting so het up about it? If you can acknowledge that you have a role and it is only a part of a picture which includes THE CLIENT and other health professionals, great, we're making progress.

But no, I'm not here to make you feel great about your profession as my experience of it was dire. If that offends you, that is your problem.*

I'm the "whiny" poster. I'm not quite sure how you came to have such a low opinion of midwives, as you've already said you paid to go private to avoid having any contact with us.

Your personal attacks are unwarranted, unpleasant and do nothing to further any debate.

The things I've read on this thread make me worry a lot for the future.

I was lucky to have a really good experience overall with the birth of our daughter. However we're considering moving to a bigger place and closer to family before trying for a second which means different hospital and staff.

I'm likely worrying over nothing...but still there's some scary things on this thread.

Also why was. "client" in capitals? I don't call people clients? They aren't clients? It's not a salon. That's a bit of a cold way to refer to a woman/patient/mother.

Some people are horrible. Some of these horrible people are unfortunately midwives. And I feel that them being horrible is worse because they're directly involved in an intimate (?) act and the woman giving birth is (to a higher or lesser degree) in a vulnerable position and it's a really sensitive time in general.

But the same goes for other areas.

I had a pretty bad and exploitative experience with a psychiatrist, e.g. and I had a genuinely abusive teachers in primary school.

That doesn't mean that I'm on principle opposed to adds or campaigns mentioning teachers or psychiatrists in a positive light.

There good and bad and I think this thread has highlighted that. There have been HCPs on here saying a healthy baby is all that matters, that PTSD and birth trauma isn't real and women need to lower their expectations and get over it, and that consent is too difficult to obtain and pointless because all HCPs know better than a woman and have the right to override her wishes.
However there have been others on here who have expressed sadness at the stories shared and have emphasised how much they do care about women having positive experiences as well as the importance of consent.

I also think it has highlighted some lack of knowledge about the role. Like whoever was suggesting we don't do enough time at university because vets who deliver cows have longer.... Weird.

I don't imagine there are any more horrible midwives than horrible people in any profession.

And I can understand that mws on this thread would feel got at.

But I fully believe that the issue we're discussing is a systemic one, not an issue of individuals being 'nasty'.

Our whole attitude, as a society, towards women and childbirth (and women's health) is appalling. It's part of an even wider problem to do with how seriously we take women, as opposed to men.

If there are posters who don't believe this, and think the patriarchy is a myth, there's nothing I can really do to make the scales fall from your eyes.

Mws are getting a bashing (unfairly overall, even if it's perfectly justifiable in specific cases) because they're at the coal face; they're the ones delivering the direct care. The culture within which they work needs a massive overhaul. But that's not their fault as individuals.

So, against this backdrop of systemic dismissive attitudes to women, of women being ignored and their pain disregarded, we have a cynical marketing campaign that cashes in on the very image of birth that is so damaging to our cause. No, OP, YANBU.

Anxiouspeg isn't a midwife so...

@AnxiousPeg perfectly said! Agree 100% 👏

zzzzz

I think you'll find I said it's not their fault as individuals that there is a systemic problem.

I also said that, in specfic cases, some midwives do deserve the criticism levelled at them.

Learn to read.

It’s like teachers - there are good, bad, awful, amazing ones. I think the bad and awful outweighed the good in my experience with midwives whereas with the teachers I’ve experienced over the years it is much more even.

Sometimes with teachers you wonder why they went into the profession if they dislike children so much (I’m sure that on a bad day a child has wondered this about me ) and with midwives it seems even weirder - such a caring profession, so why would you want to frighten or dismiss women in such a vulnerable situation?

I had a shit birth, I have PTSD, its unlikely I'll ever walk without pain again.

I am also a nurse. I've worked in some terrible holes of wards and my experience tells me this - when somewhere is underfunded and the work is too much for the staff the "good" people (the staff who are distressed by the suffering) leave in droves. The people who stay are the hardened old characters, who either had little empathy and compassion to begin with or way more commonly have had all the care driven out of them by the unrealistic expectations heaped on them. A culture then develops which puts just surviving the shift with your registration intact as the primary motivation for the staff.
Its not ok by any stretch of the imagination but it takes an exceptional individual to maintain the good part of their calling in these circumstances - which is why those who do shine out.
The fault does lie with HCPs in that we try to pretend that we can maintain good standards of care with poor funding, we really have to start shouting louder on behalf of our patients.

@Miladamermalada - I thought most hospitals had policies on partners not staying?
We chose our hospital as it was partner friendly and has reclining chairs next to the beds for partners.
I wanted by DH there so I could rest and he could be with DD whilst I slept, and spend time bonding with her when I wasn't feeding her.
He did get a stern telling before being allowed that he must be seen helping with DD at all times, or he'd be out on his ear which I thought was brilliant, and if he was a lazy git would be well deserved.
DH was brilliant and gave me any time I wanted with her alone, and he took her when I was exhausted, needed to shower and when I needed a small procedure doing.
I feel that women should have more alone intervals throughout pregnancy anyway with HCP and after birth too so DV can be picked up on. Sadly it's all a matter of not having enough time, staff or money for that.
However I don't feel that all happy and excited dad's who want to share the load should miss those moments, in fact seeing how the fathers are for a period of time around partners and the baby can help to spot signs the mother is ignoring, and that's said as a survivor of DV.

for the women posting here about distressing experiences.
too for the midwives posting here who are doing their best to provide good care in difficult circumstances.
I was going to post the info below on the MN Local board, but this seems like a relevant place to put the info too.

I'm a citizen ambassador for women and children’s services in the Surrey Heartlands area. My role is to meet women in the Surrey Heartlands area (so women in west and central Surrey, as on this map), to listen to their experiences of women and children's services. I then feed back those experiences and views to the people who plan and improve NHS services. I work with Healthwatch Surrey and the Surrey Heartlands Health and Care Partnership.

If anyone would like to talk to me, anonymously and confidentially (obviously bearing in mind the usual safeguarding provisos) about their experiences of maternity care, please drop me a PM and I'd be happy to set up a meeting. I'm interested in hearing about all kinds of experiences and views - from the negative to the positive and anything in between. It all helps to build up a picture of what is working and what isn't.

A bit more about my role and the organisations...
Surrey Heartlands Health and Care Partnership (HCP) is a partnership between Surrey County Council and NHS services in west and central Surrey. The citizen ambassador role was developed as part of Surrey Heartlands HCP's citizen engagement and insight programme, to enable the views and needs of local people to be represented in this process. To ensure that the citizen ambassadors provide a fully independent voice, Surrey Heartlands HCP asked Healthwatch Surrey, a watchdog for health and social care services, to recruit and employ us. Healthwatch Surrey is an independent consumer champion organisation which listens to the public's views and concerns about healthcare and feeds those back to the the people who plan and run provision. Healthwatch also provides a free advice and advocacy service.

We had no partners overnight policy- this meant I had virtually no sleep, rest or help the whole night as DS wasn't settling. So post natal care IME was pretty appalling. Or simply not there.

I am willing to bet a lot of this is because there's not enough midwives in general.

However, being exhausted and a bit sharp is a massive difference to being cruel and uncaring, a quick apology or explanation can fix the first, there's no excuse for the latter.

Also, when there's a couple of previous bad experiences with people in a profession then confirmation bias sets in understandably. Only solution to this is better overall care for women so that there's no opportunity for this to happen.

I think the logical answer to the question "why become a midwife if you're cold/uncaring/nasty/a bitch?" is - they didn't.

Getting a place on a training course is tough, and the 3 years that follow are even harder. You think it'll get easier when you qualify... and then you learn! No cold/nasty/uncaring person would, or could, put henselves through that for a stressful and underpaid job at the end. I strongly believe that we all go into the profession with the best woman-centred intentions and slowly, like boiling a frog, 'the system' can kick that out of you.

Have you wondered why the posters reporting poor care got that level of care? Not a single midwife would think "nah, don't fancy delivering a baby right now, I'll hide in a cupboard eating biscuits instead and hope the subsequent investigation blows over quickly" - that biscuit was probably the thing that scooped her blood sugar up off the floor!

We suffer with PTSD too: I've helped suture a baby's head back on so his mum could cuddle him. I have nightmares of being covered in someone else's blood. After some shifts I can't get the '1-2-3, breath' rhythm of neonatal CPR out of my head.

Imagine if any two of the posters describing their poor care were in the room next to each other. Now imagine they're being looked after by the same midwife. Midwife was a bit short with you? That's because the woman in the room next door is giving birth and she needs to be there. I don't like it either, but there's a bigger issue here than us all being bitches.