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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU for hating the Pampas advert thanking midwives.

422 replies

ToadsforJustice · 10/06/2018 15:17

I didn't have a positive experience with any of the MW I had the misfortune of seeing whilst having my DC.

I find the advert really triggering. I don't think I would thank anyone for the misery and pain they caused me.

OP posts:
zzzzz · 12/06/2018 07:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cathf · 12/06/2018 07:53

Sorry, I do think a lot of these stories are melodramatic spins on pps' perceptions of events.
At the end of the day, the midwife's job is to deliver the baby safely with as little trauma to mum or baby as possible. If that involves looking at mum funny or not explaining everything fully because there isn't time to do it safely, so be it.
I would like it to the way medical staff make hospital patients get out of bed every day, even if they don't want to. It's in the patient's best interests even if it's something they don't want to do.

PotOfMemories · 12/06/2018 07:56

Fuck off cathf. I was repeatedly turned away for four days because they refused to believe I was in labour and my baby was stuck. I was never examined. Then had to be rushed for an EMCS and both baby and I nearly died of sepsis. What part of that is melodramatic to you? How dare you belittle other women's experiences?

Bisquick · 12/06/2018 08:07

Sorry, I do think a lot of these stories are melodramatic spins on pps' perceptions of events.
Try to read the rest of the thread cathf
There are women sharing stories of nearly dying, nearly losing their children, and in my case actually losing their children.
The funeral I had to organise a few weeks post partum was most definitely not a melodramatic spin on events.
I don’t care about a funny look or a brusque word. I also don’t know for sure if my son’s death was caused by the negligence of 2 separate midwifes. I do know that the investigative report called for them to be offered more training and pointed out specific lapses in care which may have prevented the situation.

I’m leaving this thread now because the lack of reading skills and lack of sympathy from some posters is astonishing. Sorry for the flounce - it’s just bringing back how bereft and unheard I felt during that time.

pandamodium · 12/06/2018 08:08

Sorry, I do think a lot of these stories are melodramatic spins on pps' perceptions of events.

Really? Posters have spoke about babies dying and being left disabled. How the fuck can you put a "spin" on that?

Littletinyraindrops · 12/06/2018 08:08

@cathf - Until the baby is out the midwife if there for the mother first, before the baby surely?
Not there for the baby at the expense of the mother's well-being, which quite a lot of women here are claiming happened. Many people here just wanted to feel the had some power over decisions and what was happening to their bodies, but many do not feel they had that. Surely that in itself is the problem?

BingTheButterflySlayer · 12/06/2018 08:10

Actually I tend to understate just how horrifically badly I was treated - especially on a parenting site where pregnant women are commonplace. When I do openly tell the full sequence of events the reaction of medical staff being utterly horrified and desperately checking I complained because "that's totally unacceptable" tends to speak for itself really.

The difference in how I was treated during DD2's birth - similar set of circumstances, different hospital - really brought home to me just how disgracefully treated I was during DD1's birth. I still have physical pain from direct mishandling during the birth, and I struggle to walk any great distance at all and enjoy my own kids' childhoods as a result... and that's before the 6 years of flashbacks I've had so far and counting despite numerous courses of counselling to deal with it.

Again - the belittling of women's experiences, the accusations of "lying" or "distorted perception" is an absolute bloody disgrace and an utter shame on midwifery as a profession when members of it can get off on slating women like that.

I actually made a midwife close to tears when she saw my maternity notes for DD2 and the "birth preferences" section just had an apology that I was going to be terrified and traumatised and the little line of "please can someone tell me if it's a boy or a girl - no one bothered to last time"

Littletinyraindrops · 12/06/2018 08:19

I hope you're ok @Bisquick , I'm so sorry joe all you endured.

ScarletLouise · 12/06/2018 08:29

Nobody has the right to put their fingers into your vagina if you're saying no, not ever.

FionnaMAC · 12/06/2018 08:36

Oh my god, 'I find this really triggering'. Stfu!

Should we never thank ANYONE publicly because someone, somewhere, may have had a bad experience with them?

Grow up.

CheeseyToast · 12/06/2018 08:41

Fiona there are few life experiences as deeply emotional as birth so it is not comparable to any other experience.

Your ignorance is startling, it must be hard to be you.

CheeseyToast · 12/06/2018 08:42

cathf always makes dick comments, ignore her my friends.

MontyDog589 · 12/06/2018 08:45

I think it’s interesting that you need to do a longer university course and/or train for longer to be a vet or a dentist than you do to be a midwife. In fact the same is true of a surveyors, lawyers or accountants.

I do understand some of the reasons for that, and I don’t mean any disrespect to midwives by pointing this out. But I still think it tells you a lot about how as a society we value women’s healthcare - and actually, for that matter, women’s education - that you need to spend longer in education to care for a cow giving birth than for a woman.

ScarletLouise · 12/06/2018 08:58

Yes, midwives train for 3 years don't they? A lot of qualified midwives are literally just out of their teens. A lot of women will be cared for by a midwife young enough to be her daughter. So I'd say respect is particularly important in those instances

bert3400 · 12/06/2018 09:00

Isnt that what the off buttons for on the TV . Agree with Fionna , shall we ban absolutely everything incase someone somewhere gets upset and it triggers an emotion. 🙄

ScarletLouise · 12/06/2018 09:09

Kind of astounded by the idea that women should leave all rights to their own body, autonomy and agency at the door when they give birth though.

Obviously sometimes there are emergency situations where it is difficult to seek consent. Ideally a woman would have been educated in pregnancy and understand the risks.

However, this shouldn't be used as an excuse that consent is pointless. The rest of the time consent should ALWAYS be sought and nothing done without the woman's permission. If a woman says 'No I'm not happy with that' then she can't be forced into anything. It's her human right, regardless of whether the doctor/nurse/midwife believes it's in her best interests- they do not have the right to exercise any power over her body.

AnxiousPeg · 12/06/2018 09:16

bert

Your argument is stupid. No, we shouldn't ban 'everything'.

Take it to the other extreme: should we ban nothing? Racist adverts? Gratuitous violence on adverts? Rape on adverts?

Most of the time people use common sense and judgement. Things aren't black and white.

But apparently, when it comes to women's trauma, anything is fine.

Zebraantelopegiraffe · 12/06/2018 09:16

Except you know, vets don’t just deliver cows do they? Daft analogy. They need to know the anatomy of loads of animals not just how to deliver a calf. Same with doctors - they need to know whole body systems and pathologies where midwives specialise in one body system and normality (the drs are there for the abnormality).

To the person saying the pregnant midwife who ‘couldn’t be arsed’ because of you clary sage - clary sage is not safe in pregnancy as it brings on contractions - perhaps she is entitled to not risk her own pregnancy?

Anyway, I am sorry for everyone who has had really really poor care. There is no excuse. I’ve seen people give shit care, mostly I don’t think they mean too. (I am not talking about serious substandard care which endangers lives btw, that’s obviously disgraceful and should be investigated properly with referrals to nmc if needed). People make off comments to people every day at work, a snarky person on a call line, the cashier who talks to her friend rather than look at you when serving you, the rude waiter, the receptionist who avoids eye contact rather than aknowlegde you, the teachers moaning about parents in the staff room etc. Midwives are just people after all, they have shit days, which is not to excuse but explain. Also I know humour can be great to get people through a labour, sone people it really works to build a rapport but all it takes is someone to take something said they wrong way, repeat it in a different context and it can sound awful!

I would urge all of you who have experienced really poor and dangerous care to complain, records are kept for 25 years. Why not stop those midwives doing the same to someone else?

I am ashamed to be a midwife today.

NonSuchFun · 12/06/2018 09:17

OP YANBU I hate all slushy ads anyway, let alone how this one must be so triggering for women who have had bad experiences and lost babies.

I am shocked at this thread - so much bad practice out there. And some pretty terrible responses from one or two “professionals” - actually wondering if a certain one is a troll.

Birthdaycake - that article relates to care in USA which is very different to UK and has some of the worst birth statistics (stillbirth, maternal death) in the developed world so not really relevant.

I loved being a midwife for 20 years, trained and worked at certain centres of excellence plus 10 years community in a lovely area with a great community hospital low risk unit. None of this reflects my experience (on the whole...) but I have, as I said worked in great places and I know other areas don’t come up to the same standards which is why I wouldn’t choose to work there.

I’m glad I’m not a midwife now - birth rates keep going up and midwife numbers go down so that speaks volumes for the ability of the profession to give great, personalised care every time. It must be so stressful and worrying. Having to care for more than one person in labour is totally unacceptable but I know it is now widespread and so unsafe.
Postnatal care? I’m old enough that when I trained Midwives rules dictated that a woman should be visited twice daily for three days and once daily for a minimum of ten days, with temperature recorded every time. Managers hated that we were doing all these visits which they perceived as swanning around having cups of tea with new parents (sometimes we were) but compare that to now when there is no continuity of care and you are lucky to get two rushed visits. There was a case in the paper some time ago of a woman who died of sepsis, the midwife had forgotten her thermometer that day, now there are recommendations that temperature is recorded. Still very unsafe since it’s a bit random whether the problem should arise on the day the midwife visits. Sepsis (or good old puerperal fever as it once was) is on the rise again as a cause of maternal death although thankfully campaigns to raise awareness of sepsis with strict guidelines is helping, at least within the hospital setting.

I know I’m not perfect and sometimes one just doesn’t hit it off with a person. As a community midwife within a team and our own caseloads occasionally a woman would ask not to have a certain midwife and we would just swap around, no hassle, don’t take it personally, I had people ask for me specifically and yes, occasionally ask not to have me - it happened to all of us, not to say one shouldn’t do a little reflection and wonder what one had done wrong, but sometimes a chance remark comes out wrong and you can’t take it back and it makes a lasting (bad) impression.

For example, something that happeneded to me - I was having a minor gynae procedure and my favourite consultant jumped in and took command even though it was a junior Dr affair, but I was very pleased, he was my fav. My happiness deflated somewhat when my least favourite anaesthetist came in. If a man can be a bitch, he is one.
He said “Don’t worry, I will treat you just like everyone else”. He said it in a reassuring way and at the time it reassured me. But later I wondered if it was his subtle bitchy way of saying You May have Mr X dancing attendance but you’ll get no special attention from me. I actually think it was but maybe it wasn’t. But you see how something can be taken two ways depending on your perception.

I was always one to stay late for the delivery if the woman was second stage, didn’t particularly expect excessive gratitude for it but if you have built up a relationship with a woman over the course of her labour it seems a harsh time to leave and one wants to see the baby! However one time I stayed late, I went up to the ward to see the woman the next day. She accused me of causing her to tear by making her push too hard because I was in a hurry to go. I was so shocked I was speechless. And deeply hurt. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I had wanted to go I would have handed over to the next shift. But that was a one off. I had daughters of two patients as bridesmaids when I married so plenty of very happy experiences.

There is no excuse for vaginal exams without consent (or warning), just shocking that people are still doing this. Apart from respect for the woman it also lays one open for future court cases so it’s amazing people are doing it.

I haven’t looked at the Mumsnet campaign for better postnatal care but I’m sure it’s needed. The biggest problem I see is simply down to £££ and maths - more pregnant women, less midwives and not enough £££
Of course that is going to have a detrimental impact, and when it becomes unsafe that is very worrying. Sadly this applies across the NHS , not just in maternity.

BingTheButterflySlayer · 12/06/2018 09:24

I think the thing with adverts is they're a lot harder to avoid than an actual programme that's triggering. One Born Every Minute is very very distressing for lots of women who've had birth trauma... that's relatively easily avoided - you know when it's on and find something else to watch.

Adverts are much harder - short of clinging to the BBC until they stop running it - you're at risk of being caught unawares by it at the most random of moments - you can avoid OBEM till the cows come home, but an advert can always catch you unexpectedly in the middle of a random episode of Countdown or whatever.

PinguForPresident · 12/06/2018 09:38

But midwives, ugh, all about them and nothing to do with the client.

I trained for 3 years as a midwife. I've worked for 9 months to date as a qualified midwife. I've had 2 kids in 2 different Trusts and never saw the same midwife twice with the first one (London Trust). I have seen, worked with and experienced considerably more midwives than most people ever will.

I have NEVER met a single midwife who has made it "all about them". Our entire training is based on the concept of being woman-centred. Our competencies and skills are based on being woman centred. We wouldn't get signed off as competent if we weren't woman-centred.

The statement "midwives, urgh, all about them" is utterly offensive. You've never me me or any of my colleagues. How can you say that about us? I work over my hours every bloody shift. I work through my breaks, i go without food and water to support the women I care for. I hold hands and give aromatherapy massages as much as I perform complicated clinical tasks (more so the former, TBH, thankfully the really complex clinical stuff is for true emergencies, which there aren't that many of). Yet I and my colleagues can be dismissed with an "urgh"?

There are bad midwives out there. But there are many, many more brilliant ones. Threads like this always attract people with stories of poor care to tell - in the same way that people are quicker to complain than to compliment, and a horror story reaches a far wider audience than a story of a good experience.

My heart aches for every woman who has had a bad experience. It shouldn't have happened. Consent is NEVER optional, and even when horrible emergencies have happened, there should be someone with the woman and partner the whole way through, supporting them and keeping them informed. We spend hours training - as a multi-disciplinary team - to do this on a regular basis in my Trust.

I wish you could all hear our meetings and handovers, hear the respectful, caring way women are talked about and see what we actually do. We work so hard, and hearing tales of such hate towards us as a profession is so utterly demoralising.

NonSuchFun · 12/06/2018 09:42

Regarding training of midwives I’m interested some people think the newer midwives, last ten years are better. I’m not doubting some of the older ones are set in their ways, possibly not fully up to date although the requirements for continuing professional education should really ensure people are keeping up with safe standards. However personally I have my concerns over the direct entry courses.

When I trained I had already spent 3 years training to be a nurse plus two working in high dependency and ITU before spending 18 month’s midwifery training. I feel three years spent dividing time between Uni and placement gives a lot less experience and that is likely to show when things go wrong. A Dr recently complained to me this when she asked midwives to do an ECG on a woman they all said they didn’t know how.

There was the case of the newly qualified midwife who claimed she hadn’t been taught to interpret CTG’s in her training. How is that possible? Apparently it is.

Call to boost midwife training in vital foetal monitoring www.nursingtimes.net/news/hospital/call-to-boost-midwife-training-in-vital-foetal-monitoring/7018248.article#.Wx-ElWfy6CY.twitter

The hospital that has turned it around shows what can be achieved, it gets back to commitment and money.

Training in a more hierarchical system has it’s draw backs, but it teaches respect which seems to be seriously lacking in some new students. There was one appalling student, who was designated “runner” (that means run if asked to) at an emergency LSCS, it was a serious emergency. The anaesthetist and the surgeon both asked her to get something at the same time. She put her hands on her (fat) hips and said “Well I can’t run in two different directions at the same time so which will it be?” The surgeon was speechless, he had never been spoken to like that before. We all complained about her but she passed and if she hasn’t been struck off is no doubt out there wreaking havoc as she goes.

I don’t think women should put up and shut up and endure unacceptable practice, but safety is the priority and it concerns me that current pressures on the system and cost cutting impact safety.
Thank goodness Mumsnet is on it.

BingTheButterflySlayer · 12/06/2018 09:44

We work so hard, and hearing tales of such hate towards us as a profession is so utterly demoralising.

Then please stand up against your "colleagues" earlier on this thread who were absolutely appalling to women sharing experiences that left them incredibly traumatised and distressed - because attitudes like that set midwifery back decades and decades in the respect for women stakes.

Like I say - DD2's birth = amazing midwives, both pregnancies' community midwife = fucking awesome.... DD1's birth = absolutely disgraceful and shattered my mental and physical health.

Chalkitup · 12/06/2018 09:48

Well said pingu

NonSuchFun · 12/06/2018 09:51

Well said Pingu. Also a word of consideration to places where you never see the same midwife twice - part of the joy of the job is building relationships with the family and having that continuity of care. Women want it. Midwives want it too. It must be very demoralising for midwives working that way. Plus it impacts safer where important information doesn’t get passed on or is overlooked.