To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

Actually Youcannot, devolution was voted for in Scotland by a large majority. Brexit was voted against in Scotland by a large majority. Currently the SNP are trying their best to protect devolution and to keep Scotland in at least the single market. So in those respects, yes, they are speaking for most of Scotland. Are those not facts? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

No @Calyx I fully accept that some independence supporters are not hateful. However, I do think that the SNP is fostering hate towards the rUK in order to try and drum up support for independence. The positive case has failed, the economic case suggests severe hardship and is unlikely to convince many, so now they’re returning to the ‘evil Uk oppressing us’ line. I still maintain that there is no convincing evidence that devolution is under threat, or that anyone is trying to dissolve the Scottish Parliament.

Of course @Nyx, the majority of Scots backed devolution and Remaining in the EU. I never suggested otherwise. However, it also remains fact that a minority of the electorate voted SNP and a minority support independence. The SNP claim to be standing up for Scotland, but devolution is not under threat and frustrating Brexit will only serve to weaken the UK’s (and therefore Scotland’s) position, meaning we all lose out.

still maintain that there is no convincing evidence that devolution is under threat

Seriously?!

Youcannot - evidence please for the SNP stoking hatred towards rUK

Excuse me youcannot. I beg to differ. Devolution is absolutely under threat. The powers involved in the power grab were not retained powers and therefore were devolved powers - a founding principle of the devolution agreement being that everything not retained was devolved. So they should go straight to Holyrood, and anything relating to those powers should be dealt with by Scotland.

This is now not what is going to happen. Against the stated wish of the Scottish parliament - only the Conservatives voted against.

Devolution is absolutely under threat. Mundell just said Scotland is not a partner in the UK but a part of the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44470777

"So Ms Sturgeon is correct to say that pushing through the EU Withdrawal Bill without the consent of the Scottish Parliament means that the long-standing convention has, in effect, been "ripped up"."

Even the BBC agrees devolution is being trampled on.

Scotland takes more out of the tax pot than anywhere else in the UK, bar N.I., about £1400 per person more. So yes English people are paying for free prescriptions in Scotland

No it doesn't. But carry on believing Scottish people are sponging off the English. When people like you spout your venom it surely will only help the cause for Scotland to be independent.

Interesting to see it being inferred yet again that the oil is somehow a Scottish asset for exportation ... interesting too that this ignores it actually being assigned to an region distinct from the British mainland, commonly called the UK Continental Shelf

Had Scotland voted for independence the oil's "ownership" is yet another thing which have had to be negotiated, but they didn't so the current designation remains

@Calyx the evidence is the confrontational manner in which they have approached the question of what to do with the powers returning to the U.K. from Brussels. As the link below explains, the vast majority of the powers will return directly to Holyrood, with the remainder being held back temporarily so as not to destabilise the U.K. This is a reasonable stance, and indeed the Welsh government agreed with the proposal. The SNP however refused anything less than everything immediately, which If granted would destabilise the U.K., and so were refused. They were apparently not at all concerned with maintaining the smooth running of Scotland within the U.K. This is totally believable - as we all know the SNP would rather we weren’t in the U.K. at all. Then, following the call to SNP followers to convince Scots why we should be independent, the SNP MPs performed that ridiculous stage managed stunt yesterday, leaving behind their script which reminded them to be outraged. They have since basically declared some kind of Guerilla war, having tied Westminster’s hands with regards to the devolved power issue. This all the while claiming how outrageous it is that Scotland is being trampled on. They could hardly do more to pick a fight.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-44481490

The Sewel convention states that in normal cases, areas that aren’t reserved should be devolved. However, as the SNP themselves are keen to point out, this is not a normal situation and there are a lot of grey areas associated with EU withdrawal. This one issue over powers, which will eventually go back to Holyrood in any cause, is complicated, and it is overly simplistic to interpret this as an attack on devolution. There is no suggestion that Holyrood or any of it’s powers will be removed.

Oh dear Lagunabubbles, I take it you didn’t get the growth commission memo then. Not many nats seem to have cottoned on to the fact that it has blown out of the water a lot of the nonsense about GERS and the deficit that they have been spouting.

here are the figures. Scotland does get £1400 per head more than anywhere bar NI

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us 'A number 10 spokesperson later clarified that the NHS would NOT be part of future trade deal with the US'

Absolutely no they did not! Read the article again. Number 10 has refused on multiple occasions to rule out inclusion of the NHS in a US trade deal, and indeed we know they want it because they actively sought its exclusion from the exemptions the EU added to the failed TTIP. You can be absolutely certain the Maybot will put it in the Brexit trade deal. There is nothing the Brexiteer group want more than privatisation of the NHS US style.

@Puzzledandpissedoff 'the oil's "ownership" is yet another thing which have had to be negotiated'

Not really, international conventions are too strong. Countries are not generally at liberty to negotiate ownership of territorial assets. The only place you ever hear doubt about the geography of such assets are in pubs and places like this, the experts already know pretty much how they are divided.

@Puzzledandpissedoff 'what was that someone was saying about Scots' hatred of the English being just a figment of the imagination?'

Lots of snarling anti-Scottish comments I can point out, nothing anti-English I can see. When anything anti-English pops up feel free to point it out. But, yes, the victim English, the hearts of the world bleed for you and your plight.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us 'is the confrontational manner in which they have approached the question of what to do with the powers returning to the U.K. from Brussels.'

Excellent gaslighting. We know what powers are returning from Brussels and where they go. These are clearly defined. May and the Tories decided they didn't want all the Scottish powers going back to Scotland, but decided to grab a few. She didn't have to do that, but she decided she wanted those powers whether the Scots agreed to hand them over or not. She tried to get the Scots to consent in order to uphold UK constitutional practice. Couldn't persuade any Scottish party but her own. So decided to invoke medieval principles of divine-right inspired monarchical sovereignty and run the devolution settlement through a meat grinder to get those powers anyway. Spin it all you want, devolution as we know it is over. The Maybot's aggression is so horrendous, even the guy who came up with the 'Vow' to save the union has finally been convinced to support independence because of it.

Total manufactured grievance. 119 powers are being returned directly to Holyrood and ONLY 24 are being TEMPORARILY retained by the UK parliament to allow common frameworks to be agreed. Ask yourself why Wales managed to reach agreement but the SNP refused to?

The opportunity was there to negotiate the timescales for return of powers and sturgeon overruled the agreement that Russell had reached in order to carry out that pathetic stunt yesterday. What an embarrassment the SNP are.

The SNP could have had a vote on the issue in parliament yesterday, all they had to do was wait until PMQs was over, approx 20 minutes. But they didn't want to do that because they wanted to get pictures of themselves flouncing out all over the TV.

Scottish people must be so embarrassed by them, the SNP would rather put causing a scene above whats best for their country.

The only place you ever hear doubt about the geography of such assets are in pubs and places like this, the experts already know pretty much how they are divided

Not so I'm afraid. Existing beliefs have already been called into question In the the dispute between Venezuela and Guyana and referred to the International Court of Justice (unless of course you consider the ICJ to be like a group of folk in the pub?)

Then there was the 40 year dispute between Norway and Russia over the Barents Sea, which again might have been avoided had the issue been as clear cut as you suggest

Overall, I think you'll find that believing these things to be "clearly defined" isn't the same as them necessarily being so - even when the assumed definition happens to suit

@nononsene Manufactured by the Maybot. She didn't have to come after Scotland's parliament, but did. When she failed to get consent, from any Scottish party but her own, she didn't have to rip up the devolution settlement. Scots are getting sick being sold all this victim blaming and gaslighting and being asked to hate and vilify, degrade and demean, those who stand up for us. The SNP's stance is actually a source of pride, thousands of new members since yesterday, not an embarrassment to anyone but a few cringers. If Scotland had nothing but self-haters and cringers we wouldn't have a parliament in the first place, and only 8% of Scots support that!

@ Puzzledandpissedoff 'Venezuela and Guyana'
Wow, impressed, the unionists really like to dig deep to sow doubt among folk! The case in question was very exceptional and the reasons very political, pretty much a stunt by the US in revenge for Venezuela's politics trying to close off its oil fields to US firms. As long as Scotland doesn't go nuts and start nationalizing all the oil companies after indy we should enjoy the protection of international norms.

Add traitors and quislings and I get a full house.

The only gaslighting is from the SNP trying to convince the Scottish people that Brexit is a disaster for Scotland but independence will be great for Scotland. They are no different.

I wonder why the SNP won’t put a figure on the membership total? They’re very vague about it. Any ideas why?

The case in question was very exceptional

How many others would you like me to list? If we include all assumed possessions in response to the arrant nonsense about countries not being "generally at liberty to negotiate ownership of territorial assets" we could be here all night

Some people on here are very touchy about the idea of Scotland doing well after independence. Why is that?

I don’t call the 25 years of austerity predicted by the growth report doing well.

@nononsense that’s not what gaslighting means. You should look it up. Btw, are you seriously saying that the SNP are ‘quislings’ and ‘traitors’ for standing up to maybot? if an SNP person used those terms your people would be screaming about it. Probably be in the Daily Mail tomorrow.

Gaslighting is psychological manipulation making the victim not sure what the truth is. It perfectly describes the SNPs MO.

I feel sorry for the fools that regurgitate the SNP line on a policy and then months later have to defend the exact opposite position. Much like the white paper was totally destroyed by the growth commission.

some people on here are very touchy about the idea of Scotland doing well after independence. Why is that
Because if it will do so well after why can’t it do a bit better now? It’s had an SNP majority until the last election but things are very bad here in the SW. if I wasn’t a pensioner I’d have moved , my DC are in the S of England for work.