To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

Scotland would have a better future than England but only if independent. Especially after the power grab yesterday. Now Scotland can be fracked and fished and sold off at the say so of Conservative politicians in Westminster.

@PolkerrisBeach Yet life is long enough for you to come here and tell us that the SNP are 'anti absolutely everything which isn't Scottish' and make multiple other like posts. With the effort to make that snarky post you could have posted the evidence requested of you or apologize for spreading baseless cyberyoon smears about half the Scottish population. Your choice of course

weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/06/13/scotland-wont-be-silenced/

Sorry Rona, not interested in arguing the toss with Cybernats. Life's too short. And besides, I have a life and job to be getting on with. Will never, ever vote SNP so don't waste your time evangelising at me.

In short...no, I can’t. Ok then.

Under half the Msp’s are snp and just over half of the Scottish MPs in Westminster are Snp. My mp and Msp are both Tory. They are not confined to the south of the U.K. The snp have a cheek to talk of ‘the Scottish people blah blah’ it should be ‘some of the Scottish people or Less than half of the Scottish people blah blah blah’.

Ditto many of the other parties and

“The People”

Brexit

The SNP stand for at least 3/4s Scots on this issue. The only people who disagree with them are Tories, who most Scots detest as an alien alliance between snarling English nationalists and avaricious Etonians.

Sorry, should have added Orangemen to that cuddly trinity

Who are the "snarling English nationalists" ?

Extrapolating that X% of a population think Y on a specific issue based on political parties’ positions is not sound.

@Loopytiles I agree with that. There's two issues here. If anyone wants to de-legitimise Scottish protests at the powergrab and their argument is that only half of the Scots support the SNP, it's fair to point out that 4 of Scotland 5 big parties are opposed to it, not just the SNP. Surely? But they certainly can't make that argument and then at the same time say 'representative politicians don't represent'. It's an incoherent, self-contradictory approach. However, it is is completely right to say that people vote in elections for a variety of reasons. There are Tories who want independence and Greens who like fracking and all that. Irrespective of all that, everyone expects that the SNP will be the guys who defend Scotland, whether you vote for them or not. They are nationalists after all. Labour, LibDem or even Tories, lots of Scottish voters take comfort from the fact that the SNP exist even though we're often more pragmatic and have different priorities for our country at every election. Just like everyone expects the Tories will stand up for the rich, even if the rich sometimes vote Labour and LibDem!

However, all of this is academic, Scotland's parliament voted against the powergrab. The vast majority of its MPs oppose it. Scotland officially opposes the powergrab. And if you what to problematize the relationship between that official position and that of the population's real position, the problem will be that all but 8% of Scottish residents support devolution or independence. The London Tories don't get to say Scotland supports running the devolution settlement through a meat grinder just because they want to sell fracking licenses and the Scottish NHS to Donald Trump's plutocratic gangster friends.

Any evidence that devolution is under threat or that the Scottish NHS is to be sold to gangsters? How would this even work given that the NHS is completely devolved? And what about the many Scottish unionist voters who are secretly relieved that the SNP exists - any evidence for this?

So best to just state the position(s) of other political parties and elected representatives, and don’t extrapolate.

You allege that anyone challenging your assertions about the proportion of the population of Scotland who think X on an issue are seeking to “delegitimise” your arguments.

It’d be easier to understand the MPs’ and your concerns if you explained what those concerns are, in terms other than “the powergrab”.

As for the SNP “defending Scotland”, people will have different views about which political parties and specific policies constitute “defending Scotland”.

'Any evidence that devolution is under threat'
Stealing powers from Holyrood without its consent, overriding its legislation, ignoring the Sewel Convention, demonstrating clear intent. Devolution isn't under threat, devolution as we know it is already dead. It died two days ago.

NHS trade deal:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-donald-trump-nhs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html
We have clear proof, not simply evidence, of intent from both British leaders and US leaders. Trade deals have the power to make Scottish and British parliaments powerless. Once US companies get the right to convert NHS services into profit making exercises for themselves it will be over. The trade deal will give them the right, not the just the opportunity.
If you wish information about how US private health care companies act like gangsters and bleed ordinary Americans for tribute in exchange for access to services that we all enjoy for here, let me know. You can also watch the documentary SICKO (just google it). If Scottish people think US health care is some benevolent system misrepresented by some villainous lefties they're going to be in for a shock!

@Loopytiles Playing I didn't hear it here changes nothing. There is no room for confusion here, the SNP's stance, indeed the Labour Party;s stance, the LibDem's stance, the Green stance, represents Scotland, as I have already shown. Besides a small number of hard-core Tory activists, who I'd respectfully suggest might be overly active on this website, the Scottish people with almost a single voice support devolution and oppose its dismemberment by the Tories. End of.

Maybe if Scotland was more welcoming to English university students...Scotland seems to make university free to absolutely everybody from all over the world....except the English!

Scotland (I’m a 1/4 Scottish and I love Scotland as if it was my home and have been visiting family there for 40 years) still has many problems. They receive massive funding from central government and yes, prescriptions might be free, no tuition fees etc but that’s because they are choosing to spend that funding in a different way to England. It doesn’t mean there are not deficits in other areas.

I love the way Scotland embraces hydro and wind power and they’re fortunate to have such sustainable potential and I love the way they forge ahead in tech industry. I also love the people.

But when they get more central govt. funding per capita than we do in England, I don’t know what will happen if England leaves the EU and Scotland stays in and has to fend for itself in Brussels.

On this thread no one has explained, in factual terms, what the SNP’s concerns about what has happened with the UK government’s handling of EU exit as regards scotland and the scottish government’s devolved powers actually are!

The parties’ stance on what?!

And again you’re alleging that people who question or challenge your arguments are “Tory activists”. To be fair, some posters have been similarly rude about you and others. None of that helps posters like me who wish to try to understand the issues and arguments.

free tuition hasn't been all great for scottish students - the SNP capped the number of free places because of having to find the money, and universities love fee paying students for obvious reasons. Guess what happened?

@Loopytiles On this thread no one has explained, in factual terms, what the SNP’s concerns about what has happened with the UK government’s handling of EU exit as regards scotland and the scottish government’s devolved powers actually are!

No, it's being explained lots of times. I just did it in my last response to you.

question or challenge your arguments are “Tory activists”

Well, the way to tell the difference is that the activist just wants to make the same points, ignores counter arguments and doesn't respond to debate like a normal human. The activists is just interested in making the same point or one liners visible by repeating them over and over irrespective of whether or not it has been discussed and refuted. Unfortunately, the person that does those things is quite similar to a person who cannot discuss complex issues for other reasons.

You cannot be serious Youcannot. Looking for evidence that devolution is under threat?

15 minutes allocated to a debate about devolution and the lot of that filibustered so that SNP couldn't talk at all. There's a save our parliament demonstration at Holyrood today. Unionists want it removed.

Did you actually read the article you posted Rona? A number 10 spokesperson later clarified that the NHS would NOT be part of future trade deal with the US. I’m very familiar with the US system having worked there briefly, but since the U.K. is unlikely to ever adopt such a system I don’t see the relevance here.

Devolution is clearly not dead as the Scottish government is still running and no one is seriously suggesting it shut down. No powers have been removed, nor will be removed. The Scottish Parliament did indeed vote as you suggest, but their position has no legal standing and this issue is complex as has been discussed above. It is unreasonable to extrapolate from the Scottish government’s position that the majority of Scots think this way, and this is not evidence that devolution is under threat. No one but the SNP is seriously suggesting it is.

More than 5000 people have joined the SNP since yesterday, lots of them saying on twitter they won't stand for the trampling of devolution or the risk to our parliament.

You’re being rude, Rona.