To think Scotland has a better future than England

[hadenough]

The state of the UK today makes me utterly depressed. A Brexit voted for on the basis of lies, an anti-immigrant rhetoric, and a general attitude of unwelcome.

But yet, in Scotland, the message is very different - a focus on welcoming people to the country, an opposition to Brexit, and a real debate about the future.

It genuinely saddens me to be part of a wider country that appears intent on going back, but never forward.

[DontDrinkDontSmoke]

And I wonder how many more SNP supporters held their nose like Mhairi Black (when she’s not picking it that is)

Those words say more about you than Mhairi.

[Fflamingo]

and selling our fishing
If I’m not mistaken it was the fishermen who sold their fishing rights to Spanish fishermen etc. Nowt to do with the government. The rights were issued then owners of rights could sell them on. Which they did.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

That's very true, lettuce, but I was thinking more of the overall picture, rather than just one age demographic - especially given the known trend among the young of voting for "the alternative" rather than the status quo, which in itself often changes as they age and gain more experience

I wonder, too, what effect the projected ageing of the population will have when it comes to any future vote

[ronatheseal]

@nononsense look at the number of Tories here who try to make out that only the SNP oppose the Maybot’s powergrab. Unfortunately, it suits both sides to think like that, and also mirrors the media, where almost all the newspapers are tories and almost all social media outlets are snp leaning. Look at all the Labour doyens coming on twitter and supporting the SNP’s position, guys like Malcolm Chisholm, media aren’t reporting them, they want to brainwash people into thinking Scottish opposition is SNP child’s play and, they hope, prevent Scottish voters engaging with this critical issue. The middle ground soft nationalist / patriotic Scot who used to buy the daily record or the like, got annoyed when Scotland was ignored or slighted on tv but opposed independence as unrealistic and a betrayal other working class peoples in the UK, she and he are being squeezed out not just because there is no room, but because she and he would destroy the SNP baaad story they’re trying to push in order to end devolution.

[lettuceWrap]

Amongst the young (up to age 34), very recent polling suggest support for independence at about 59% -
This matches what I’m seeing and hearing from the young adults I know (and plenty of us older Scottish voters will be voting yes again when the time comes).

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/953074/Brexit-news-Scotland-independence-referendum-latest-poll-SNP-EU-UK-withdrawal-video

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Some may well have voted "remain" in order to stay in the EU

Apologies if that was unclear ... I meant they voted "remain" as in staying in the UK

[nononsene]

Ah that old trope that if you’re not an SNP voter then you’re a Tory voter. Nope, Not a fan of the Tories either.

The SNP have done a great job reviving the tories in Scotland.

2,001,926 Scottish voters voted to remain in the U.K.

1,661,191 Scottish voters voted to remain in the eu

Clearly remaining in the U.K meant more to the Scottish voters.

And I wonder how many more SNP supporters held their nose like Mhairi Black (when she’s not picking it that is) and voted remain thinking it would get them another indyref?

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

I realise that, lettuce but I was thinking more about the recent polls on current support for separation from the UK

Some may well have voted "remain" in order to stay in the EU, but now that's not going to happen I'd have expected a huge increase in the backing for independence, in the hope that the EU would accept Scotland as members - by no means a given, however much some pretend otherwise

But according to those recent polls the massive "Indy" support just isn't there, is it?

[Luckymummy22]

That’s interesting. And actually my experience of such voters does not differ at all from you...... I wouldn’t be surprised if most were of a similar demographic

[lettuceWrap]

Scotland voted decisively to remain within the EU. MUCH more decisively than the narrow UK wide results.

Wrt to Indyref - the results were clouded IMO by the strong status quo line being pushed by the NO campaign- that if we (Scotland) wanted to remain in Europe, then we needed to vote NO, as only a no vote would ensure our continued me, membership of the EU. There were certainly people who voted NO because of that - now we are being dragged out of the EU anyway.

[ronatheseal]

@Luckymummy22 14% of Scotland's residents, according to a yougov estimate, voted leave+yes, which ends up being about 33% of yes voters.
yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/27/why-have-polls-not-shown-shift-towards-scottish-in/
My mother-in-law, who was a big Yesser, was one of them I recently found out to my surprise. She wasn't very vocal about that at the time, but I've recently learned also that she was annoyed at the SNP for their pro-EU 'antics'. Anyway, 16% of Scotland's residents voted Leave-No. That group I don't understand. I understand there are proper nationalists who want to be free of everything but if you are Scottish the last makes no sense. It only makes sense if you imagine that lot are readers of newspapers, most of which were NO and LEAVE, and have no political thoughts not passed to them by some right-wing editor in London.

[Luckymummy22]

38% of people who voted in Scotland in Brexit Referendum voted to Leave. It would be interesting to know him many of them voted Yes in the Referendum

[ronatheseal]

The Tory campaign accounts here running off the tired old propaganda about farming payments and education. The SNP government has been excellent over the last decade in spite of huge challenges posed by Tory austerity. Just imagine what it have been like without having a party dedicated to Scotland protecting Scotland: privatised NHS, £10,000 a year for our kids to go to uni, all sorts of predatory administration fees for people wanting to rent, dangerous levels of deregulation, barbecues of poor people in our big cities so the better off didn't need to pay reasonable amounts of council tax. Just remember back what it was like in the 1980s and the Tories could have their way with Scotland directly, and Scotland got virtually no attention. Goodness me, we still had the feudal system until the first years of the parliament so neglectful were they all. But so many Scots rely on English media and newspapers that want to turn us against our own interests. I am genuinely terrified of what's coming for us, for the future of my children, now that the devolution settlement has been ripped up and we're being dragged out of the world's biggest trading zone against our will by English nationalists whose newspapers have convinced them that foreigners are baddies and that Scots are whinging parasites who need to be put in their place. Scotland is in trouble.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Mention of the national debt reminds me that a Scottish share of this is yet another thing which would have to be negotiated, should they ever vote for independence ... could be interesting

Also interesting are the comments about what Scotland will do when independent - not could do if it happened, but will. Given that this has been rejected once already, that the SNP lost their majority and that most polls still suggest support for the idea is less than would be needed for a referendum "success", I wonder if this is honestly likely in the foreseeable future

[Calyx]

Ironically I think independence would benefit the Conservatives in Scotland

[Nyx]

Well nononse in an independent Scotland you can vote for whichever party you think will be best for Scotland and they will all be parties based in Scotland and whose policies are designed to benefit Scotland. Even Scottish conservatives, with policies to benefit Scotland, if that is how you would prefer to vote. Can you tell me a current Conservative policy designed to benefit Scotland?

[nononsene]

I absolutely do not agree that the SNP are running Scotland well at all. They have absolutely fucked up education, policing, payments to farmers, the named persons fiasco, stamp duty. I could go on all day listing their failures. The sooner we’re rid of them the better.

[nononsene]

And given what a dearth of talent there is in the SNP the negotiations to separate would make the Brexit negotiations look like a well oiled machine!

Derek McKay is the best the SNP can do for finance minister. He doesn’t even have a degree never mind any finance experience!!

Their best option for defence minister is a former holiday rep.

[Calyx]

Excellent post Nyx.

Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Scotland needs independence to thrive and does have a better future than England.

[Luckymummy22]

How do you know a Scottish goverment would try to match Irish pensions?

Surely you do not know who would form a Scottish government after independence was achieved?

This is one thing that really annoys me and it’s not just the Nationalists to blame.

I hate this culture of lets just say what people want to hear, never mind if there is any truth to it.

I want the truth. I want the truth from UK govt. I want the truth from Brexiteers and I want the truth from the SNP and everyone else, no matter how unpalatable it is.

[lettuceWrap]

Nyx ^ this. Well said.

[Nyx]

The SNP are governing Scotland a damn sight better than the Conservatives are ‘governing’ the UK.
 
Scotland will balance the books the same or better than any other small country.  Are you suggesting Scotland doesn’t have the resources?  “These estimates for GNI confirm that Scotland is a wealthy and prosperous country” – Fraser of Allander Institute.
 
An independent Scotland will have a GDP the size of Portugal and a population the size of Lithuania, I’m pretty sure we will be fine.  If not, tell me why not please?  In comparison to other independent countries, what will stop us from being successful and thriving?  With a generous amount of the resources that any nation would need to prosper, why is Scotland not fitted to be independent?
 
There were 51 independent members who signed up for the United Nations in 1945, there are now 193 independent members of the UN.  Not one of the broke a sweat over what currency they would adopt.  As they negotiated their independence they decided what would be the most useful currency option to adopt.  This is what Scotland will do.  And no matter what currency option is adopted, it will be shouted down and rubbished by Unionists.  No matter how sensible or otherwise.  In 2014 the Unionist response on our chosen currency option was a lie.  They said we could not use the pound, when afterwards it was admitted that we could have used the pound and the banks were in fact preparing for that option.  So I’m not going to argue about currency when no matter what is said, it will be rubbished.  Basically, an independent Scotland will chose whatever currency option is best for an independent Scotland.
 
If Scotland’s economy is weak, we need to grow it.  Continuing in the Union is asking for more of the same, and worse.
 
Scotland’s current deficit is the result of Scotland being trapped in a UK economy with a £1,85 trillion national debt.  Scotland is being charged more than £4 billion every year in interest on the UK’s debt.  Also more than £3 billion for ‘defence’ (where is our defence? We are the only maritime nation without a navy).  Denmark and Finland and New Zealand defend themselves on less than half of that.  We also pay a share of the expenses of the London underground system, the London sewerage network and lots of other areas of “national expenditure” that have nothing to do with us.  And the House of Lords.
 
If we are short of NHS consultants, we’re not as short as the NHS in the rest of the UK.  And being allowed to deal with our own immigration policies would be a very good place to start instead of complaining when the Scottish Government’s hands are tied.
 
The UK and the Scottish Government agreed that pensions will be fully honoured.  It really is about the worst pension in Europe.  A Scottish Government will aim to match the Irish pension as a first step.
 
Lesley Riddoch says "The debate about our constitutional future invariably portrays Scotland as a small, remote nation, stubbornly demanding its own perspectives on just about every issue, instead of accepting the UK norm. "Actually, from a Northern point of view, Scotland is a relatively big country, facing nothing like the remoteness of northern Norway, Finland or Iceland. "Yet countries like these consistently out-perform Scotland.  "But since no media seeks out these northern neighbours, Scots are none the wiser about what is normal for small nations all around us."
 
You should watch her short films about various small nations to see what Scotland could achieve, instead of talking Scotland down.

[Calyx]

I don't believe independence for Scotland would be as bad as rule from Conservatives in Westminster. We are a nation and a country, not a county council.

[Babdoc]

An independent Scotland would have an unsustainable 8.9% deficit, no currency reserves, no currency, and no prospect of ever rejoining the EU, due to the Spanish veto.
Spain would never allow a breakaway state to join, as it would encourage Catalan separatists.
Scotland has an ageing population, high NHS, social care and pension liabilities, a poor education system that has fallen so far down the international league tables that the SNP have withdrawn us from said tables out of embarrassment, and is dependent on hand outs from England via the Barnett formula to try and bridge the gap between expenditure and income.
The continual threat of independence is a deterrent to inward investment, and the higher income tax here than England deters doctors and other skilled professionals from working here. We have trouble recruiting NHS consultants - there are unfilled vacancies across Scotland.
We also have a toxic debt from the PFI (private finance initiative) used to build NHS hospitals - we will be paying millions for decades,to
private consortia who ripped us off for substandard buildings.
My own hospital had 23 separate leaks pouring through the ceilings, the first time it rained after the building was handed over.
Scotland would face years of austerity that would make Tory cuts look like a picnic, if we were stupid enough to follow the SNP into independence.

[Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]

The SNP's governance of Scotland is the best insight any of us have about how independence would be. As you say yourself, the SNP are the only party really pushing for independence, and so, if they achieved their aim, they would be the ones doing all the critical work of setting up an independent Scotland. They would be the ones negotiating with the rUK for a share of joint assets etc., they would be the ones putting into place all of the key institutions that would need to be created, and they would be solely responsible for managing the economy as well as health/education/police etc. as they currently do.

It is therefore perfectly sensible to look at how well they are doing currently when trying to decide how well they would fare as rulers of an independent country. This means looking at their track record (abysmal) and looking at the way they conduct themselves (student-like protesting, sulking when they don't get their way, and shady practices when it comes to things like FOI requests and so on). It is simply not good enough to say that we could make our own choices and everything might be rosy, so lets take a chance on it. All of the evidence suggests severe hardship.