School fees

[Noway123]

I’m hoping for some advice as I am panicking and absolutely pissed off!!!
I currently live in a London borough and my children attend a children’s centre 3 days a week, 8am-6pm, term time only. I have just been informed that if my children want an 8-6 place then I will have to pay for all year round. Can they do this? I’m just about scraping by as it is and now they are adding hundreds of pounds a month to my children’s fees. I work full time, my partner works full time and I honestly don’t know how I’m going to be able to do this.
AIBU to be totally pissed off? Another smack in the face for a working parent.

I'm terribly sorry OP because I can see how stressful and difficult this will be for you. The nursery are totally entitled to do this but that doesn't mean it isn't a real pain for you.

You need to think about what the alternatives will be for you now. It might be worth as a first step asking if you can negotiate the price down with the nursery. If that's a no go, you might have to look elsewhere for cheaper places. Do you get the government funded childcare places for your older DC?

Could you work in the school holidays doing something else? Maybe tutoring / childminding etc? If your dc are in nursery anyway due to you having to pay you could maybe use the time to work a second job and fund the places.

Not sure what else to suggest but I am very sympathetic, this sounds very stressful

I agree Noway123 I currently work 3 days & earn about 23k plus I have help with cc 1 day a week, I know the cost of it is a burden.

Cheap for london I said. I paid £1k a month five years ago and it's gone up since then so yes, £800 a month is relatively cheap and TTO is pretty rare. If you think £800 is a lot and TTO isn't rare why not shop around? It's all very well repeating that it's a government run place - do you think other people are choosing to pay more just for the hell of it? Nope, they're paying more because affordable childcare is vanishingly rare and there is very little choice at all. Sorry if that sounds harsh but the "smack in the face" you speak of really shouldn't be such a shock. It's been this way for ages for most parents in London and if your borough is different well then, again, shop around. But you might be disappointed.

*if TTO isn't rare

@myotherusernameisapun I also have a 5yo so I would have to look after her during the hols anyway.
No cheaper prices as this price is set across the borough.
I will receive funding in sep, the term after his third birthday

@pinkdelight I’m not sure if you sent your children to a private nursery but as I’ve repeated many times, I can’t shop around as government funded nurseries are obviously the cheapest choice and are all set at the same price. TTO is actually not rare at all. I’ve worked in many settings offering this over the years. I’ve akso worked in private schools.
My main point being is that I did not choose a private nursery due to their pricing and flexibility. Was that not the whole point of the government opening up these settings, so they can support more parents with childcare for children under 4. Non working parents can claim 30 hours when their children are 2. Why is this the case?

Non working parents cant claim 30 hours when their children are 2. If they are on certain benefits they get 15 free hours of early education to stop their children falling behind. As Im sure you are aware children from poorer backgrounds generally struggle more in education and can often start school way behind their peers.

You have had it easy for the last few years, and are now facing what most people have had as the norm. I got one month's notice from my son's nursery last year that they were charging top up fees on the subsidised hours, ontop of extortionate charges for food that were already agreed. They were legally not allowed to do that (pre 30 hours stuff), but they did, and nobody from the LEA to my MP to the secretary for education actually cared to hold them to account on it. This is the SE, not London, and I can tell you that your local council must be massively subsidising your childcare costs. Plus the discount you are getting with tax free childcare. You are really not being hard done by. Lots of women cant afford to work when they have had 2 kids as the cost of childcare is so high. You have 3 kids, so really not a surprise to anyone if you are struggling to make work pay.

In my county we don't have children's centres any more at all. They were closed to save money and so the buildings could be used to create extra classrooms. Most of the libraries have closed, bus subsidies cut, cuts to all public services. Im amazed that your local council has maintained such a high childcare subsidy for so long with the endless cuts from local government.

Just for camparison we pay £200 a week. That’s for 2 children & pays for 2 full days for one at the cm, 2 after school pick ups for the eldest & the rest is the top up of the 30 free hours.

I don't really understand why it would cost you more?

You currently pay for 10 hours a day 3 days a week for 39 weeks of the year - so 1170 hours per year.

Next year, you need to pay 10 hours a day, 3 days a week for 52 weeks of the year, BUT you will get 30 free hours during term time. So for 39 weeks, your childcare will be entirely covered by the 30 free hours. You just need to pay for 13 weeks @ 30 hours a week - so 390 hours per year.

So yes, they give with one hand and take away with another, but surely it works out better for you overall? Or am I missing something?

@happinessiseggshaped yes you’re right you do need to be entitled to benefits to claim 15 hours free, some can actually claim 30. In my borough they can.
What is classed as a ‘poorer background’ the fact we can hardly make ends meet, am I part of that poorer background. I’m not getting into a benefits debate but sadly if you add up benefits given as ££ and subsidies you can claim then most families with children claiming benefits end up with more money than I do at the end of the month. I really don’t want to get into that debate as I work closely with families who are unemployed or on a low income and I support them in getting these benefits, although not technically what I am paid to do. It’s more as a favour. Which I think they should be entitled to. It just saddens me that there is less and less support for working families.
The whole point I am trying to get across is that there seems to be less and less support for working parents. Many have said I’m lucky to have paid so little and TTO. But isn’t that the point of them being government run. To support the parents. They may as well all be private then.

Just for comparison, we are in outer London. No 30 hours offered anywhere decent, the oldest got 15 hours. We paid £1900 per month for 5 days 8-6 for both....

@mrsm43s
At the mo I pay 3 days a week 8-6. In sep it will be increasing to 5 days a week. Meaning I would only have been paying for 2, which would have decreased my monthly charge. With the changes I would be paying 10 hours a week plus 50 hours a week during holiday times. You are not entitled to a free 30 hours during the hols.

*20 hours a week, not 10. Sorry

Anyway I’ve managed to sort it. Thanks to all your advice I’m going to get a childminder to collect my son from school at 3.30 everyday. Meaning he’ll be TTO only and his place completely free. They won’t allow me to change my 1yo to 9.30-3.40.

But of course you've got to expect to pay more if you're upping your days from 3 to 5? You are still getting a cracking deal!

Anyway, I'm glad you've got it sorted.

Glad you've got it sorted. Just on this:

"But isn’t that the point of them being government run. To support the parents. They may as well all be private then."

Yep - you've now got your head around the change in government. Welcome to 2018!

@mrsm43s in sep when I increased my days from 3-5 it was actually going to save me £100 a month. That’s what I was so looking forward too. I think that I need to add if my son attended a nursery in a school in sep he would be totally free but I would only be allowed to stick to 3 days. It would be at the discretion of the nursery if he was able to attend 5. So I still think I’m getting a shite deal.

@hagueblue I’ve had a look and it says that the self employed aren’t eligible and lost some exceptions. Unfortunately my partner is not part of that exception.

I was informed yesterday that they would not allow my 1yo a TTO place. So this option is only for nursery aged children. They are honouring my 1yo contract until she is 3. She is almost 2. I think the reason behind this is due to the wording in my boroughs terms and conditions. It doesn’t state at what age they can have TTO. I asked if she could be TTO but they refused.
Just over a year ago I was on maternity and my now 5yo was in the nursery. She was TTO 9.30-3.30 but my then 2yo was not allowed 9.30-3.30 so I was paying 8-6. One whole extra core day a week I was not using and paying for. Because I obviously dropped him and collected him during TTO hours.
Parents talk. Everyone was offered something different at the discretion of the nursery. Unemployed parents were offered to spread their hours across the holidays, which was not allowed.
Why should parents be forced to pay for what they don’t use. The setting have children during the holidays as they run a holiday scheme. Why not promote this rather than forcing TTO children to pay for all year round. They will double book, which they usually do, and can’t do. The manager will have a quiet word with you and say ‘I’m doing you a favour, don’t mention it to anyone’
If you’ve guessed I’m more than just a parent at this setting. I don’t work there, but I’m linked with them, so I probably know more than I’m supposed to.

Change nurseries - its a bit much to call it a smack in the face for working parents especially if you chose to have kids and work. Working parent or non working parent, no system is perfect.

@hague I looked at working tax credits. My partner is not eligible as he is self employed.

@lethaldrizzle I’ve said many times that changing nursery isn’t an option as this has been implemented across the borough.
You’re right no system is perfect but if they take away from working parents and give to non working parents, then yes I think it is a smack in the face. The letter we received sounded very much like that.
I did choose to have kids and I did choose to work. It’s just a shame that so many are discouraged to work. Why should I be penalised by choosing to contribute?
Why are non working parents entitled to free childcare at 2yo and a working parent is not. How does that make any sense??
All parents have a different income. Someone on half the wage I am on is left with more disposable cash than me at the end of the month???

Being self employed does not preclude you from getting working tax credits, OP:

revenuebenefits.org.uk/tax-credits/guidance/how-do-tax-credits-work/self-employed/