To think a lot of left wing people are actually close minded?

[DeepFatFriar]

Close minded as in not receptive to other peoples views.

Disclaimer: i consider myself left wing.

But at the same time, I'm quite happy to have a talk with someone down the pub who might be anti immigration or anti abortion. As long as they've thought their point out properly, im open to debate and i dont feell offended by their views.
But it feels like a lot of the left wing people i come across just go into "racist twat! Fucking tory!" mode- like theyre incapable of seeing that situations are often a bit more complex than just this is right/thats wrong.

For example with Brexit, i voted remain and was gutted by the result - at the same time, i felt a bit irritated by fellow remainers "theyre all little englander tory twats" attitude to brexiters. Yeah, some of them are. Others just have a different POV, you know?

I was discussing this with my mum and she said back in her day (im assuming this means the 70s!) "conversation felt more nuanced".

It sometimes feels like a lot of left wing people just want to live in an echo chamber. I think you need to try and keep an open mind to different points of view. You clearly dont have to agree. But you can at least accept that people have different mindsets because they've had different experiences - it doesnt make them a worse person though.

It's because they are not actually left-wing. They just say they are.

These people tend to have no values or principles that match those of the early Labour, trade union or mutualist movements. They aren't Marxists or Methodists. Most of them support the freedom of movement of capital across Europe and the right for a European company to choose a tax jurisdiction. They have nothing but sneers for the traditional working class.

So exactly how are they left-wing? Because they support the NHS? Support for a nationalised healthcare system doesn't make you left wing. Kuwait has a state funded free-to-access healthcare system; I don't see anyone claiming that makes Kuwaitis a bunch of lefties.

To my mind, after two decades working in the political field at both national and local level, you have four lots of people scooped together under the label "left wing": proper Marxists, proper Old Labour, Establishment Pod People, and Wanna-Be Revolutionaries (who tend to come from rather privileged backgrounds).

Most of what we see as "left wing" these days are the latter two. The Establishment Pod People are those that hold what they think are "lefty" beliefs but is actually the ideology of the Establishment, which paints itself as "left wing" or "liberal left" but is anything but. Those people have quite rightly figured out that those beliefs are the one they need to espouse and adhere to in order to get ahead in the establishment framework: be that a career in government, academia, the arts, the BBC or the Bank of England.

Interestingly, when it comes to this Establishment "leftism", it's always struck me that it is eerily reminisicent in perspective and attitude to Victorian British imperialist perspectives and attitudes. It's all soaked in this very pseudo-benevolent, paternalistic, arrogant, dismissive, patronising, privileged yet somehow "long suffering" bollocks that insists on classifying people like insects pinned onto green baize. If you disagree with these people, they will a) look at you with pity, as evidently you are never going to be able to do anything for them because you simply won't get into a position of usefulness to their career or b) distance themselves immediately lest you damage their careers and standing with your distasteful opinions.

Then you have the wanna-be-revolutionaries: the "socialist" dude-bros, the SWPers (in their various incarnations), the "anarchists" that have never read a word of Kropotkin ... These are the people who want their very own 1968, are usually rebelling in a subconscious way against their families, and have such a belief in righteousness of their own opinions that to disagree with them is to be a heretic.

However, if you disagree with either Old Labourites or Old Marxists, you will inevitably end up in a pub, with pints of beer stacking up across the table and six hours later, you will be talking about either tractor production, the Paris Commune, or how the Enclosures Act was the beginning of the slavery of the honest working man.

Again, this breakdown sheds some light on how support for immigration and abortion became somehow "left-wing" in the West (read: part of the establishment ideology), when freedom of movement, even within national boundaries, was heavily proscribed under Communism/Socialism in the East. Again, the most well-known country that pursued a pro-life agenda to horrific consequence was a Soviet satellite.

When you pull back from this even further, the real issue is that we live in a hyper-capitalist (even anarcho-capitalist when it comes to finance) economic environment, which is completely supported by establishment ideology, with supporting social and cultural positions sold to us as "left wing". It's a gross deception really.

I can do a similar breakdown of the "right wing", I hasten to add. The alt.right is fascinating for just how un-right-wing it really is, and the icons of the "intellectual dark web" are perplexing in how they identify all the problems of the world as the fault of "marxists" and "postmodernists", which is their mislabelling of the Establishment Pod People.

@WidowWadman

Your "being open to debate" and "not offended by their views" just shows how blinkering privilege is. If you don't challenge hateful views but respect them as legitimate, you're not being open minded or neutral, but you side with the haters against those who they hate.

Its not blinkering and its not condoning.

So for example I go to a city that isnt mine and i stop in at a pub. I get talking to a regular who has been going there for 20 odd years or whatever, its a real community pub. The community is desperately fighting to hold onto this pub because the council has sold the building off and the pub faces closure.

This guy and his mates are really upset about this since the pub is basically their second home.

This guy CLAIMS that the reason its being sold off is because the councillor is Muslim. He then goes on to talk about how the area has changed and most of the population in the area now are Muslim and other than the pub he doesnt recognise his place in the area anymore.

So im sitting there with no idea whats true or not because its not my city let alone my area.

I could stand up in a rage and call him an islamophobic racist bigoted twat and leave the pub.

Or I could just listen to a guy talking about his area and something thats important to him and understand that there are experiences and feelings that go into shaping a persons views. I dont think the guy was saying that Muslims are terrible people and he hates them. I think the guy was saying that he feels left out of some changes that are happening in his neoghbourhood.

Possibly, yes, but with extremists I'm not sure it's so much about expecting them to change their views - more just hoping they might acknowledge that others are entitled to their own, instead of reverting to silly insults

That’s not a left or right issue.

I do see the phrase “the left” flung about like a dirty word way more than “the right”. In fact never seen the latter.

It’s a lazy way of arguing. What does “the left” even mean....

I myself make sure I read widely to form an opinion. Getting sucked into arguments online gets me nowhere because most other stuff I come across is very one-dimensional and shallow in logic.

Personally I’m more of a “leftie” I suppose because I believe that people on the whole are decent, instead of state spongers and that luck plays a huge part in success, so we need to provide more support. I try and understand the mentality that seeks to take money away from those who can least afford it on the basis that they “should work harder”. The logic of which falls away when you look at the reality of our economy.

That’s not a left or right issue

I know - that's why, in that particular post, I mentioned "extremists" without labelling them left or right

Fair point. And I agree. It’s people with strong views who won’t even listen properly which are like that

I know what you mean op. Some people i know are very left wing and belittle anyone else's views or opinions no matter how well argued. They are rather hypocritical too, specifically moving house so their children could go to the better performing Church school (while mocking anyone who practises) and not hang round with the rough kids (their words), while criticising anybody who chooses private education.

Yes.

Yes believitornot I agree with that point too

I just been told to fuck off on Twitter by some v r wing bloke because we have differing points of view.
I've had a similar thing from a v left wing person although we ended up having a good conversation because I'm interested.
Idiots on both sides.

If you don't challenge hateful views but respect them as legitimate, you're not being open minded or neutral, but you side with the haters against those who they hate

That depends how you define ‘hateful views’ really doesn’t it? I am strongly against discrimination based on skin colour or nationality and I value living in a diverse society. I would define as hate speech anything which called for discrimination or harm towards other citizens on the basis of their, race, nationality, religion or sexuality.

But I think the asylum system needs reforming in order to ensure we are helping those in the most danger rather than the fittest and the wealthiest who can get here unassisted. I am pro-immigration but would like to see it reformed to address the skills we need rather than having a lot of low skilled migration which I believe harms the poorest in our society. I am sceptical about trans ideology.

I’m sure some people would think that my views were ‘hate’ that needed speaking out against. Many people are currently saying that the left’s attitude towards Jews is ‘hate’ we need to speak out against.

What ‘hate’ is, is totally subjective too.

danci

The left’s obsession with identity politics too - I think that is one of the cleverest games of divide and conquer ever played. If you manage to convince people that their neighbours are their oppressors and their enemies just on the basis of their colour or race or religion or sexuality - they’re never going to work out who is actually oppressing them and that’s the people with the money. Some very wealthy people support the left these days and identity politics seem to be a distraction from the fact that the left has all but abandoned ideas about economic equality for the working classes.
this as a black working class person I always find it amusing when a white middle class often a trustaian things they can educate me on race and racism

They also often assume the left they have the BME vote sewn up BME groups are often very conservative in their views

And this thing of trying to make out now we have Brexit we have more racial issues
Those people clearly are not black or they would know I been called a black bastard in the street when labour were in power in the 90s and a wog just a few months ago
Whatever the decade is and who ever is in power my son is still more likey to be arrested and I am afraid I very much Momentum’s virtual signaling or identity politics will change that

And however hard anyone tries

You can’t see who it’s just views as rich whites

Telling poor whites and poor blacks they don’t know what’s good for them

Let’s have a re vote or let’s not let you have a vote because your not educated enough to make a good choice
Or you made a choice but your to stupid to understand the choice you made

And all the while sending their kids off to grammers
Having the choice to live in areas free of the immigration they impose on others

And this thing of trying to make out now we have Brexit we have more racial issues

metoo, that’s another thing as well, because it’s generally white left wing people claiming that Brexit has caused racism too. And the ‘evidence’ they use to back that up doesn’t stand up to a lot of scrutiny.

But Brexit only put any sorts of limits on white migration. Even Nigel Farage was very open about the fact that Brexit would mean we would need to rely far more on skilled migration from the Commonwealth. That’s actually something I am quite keen on, because I think that people from the colonies contributed more to this country’s wealth that someone from Germany or Sweden or Romania.

So they have more right to share it’s benefits IYSWIM.

When I was a student and becoming interested in politics, the Right were aggressively authoritarian, illiberal, bigoted, censorious, intolerant of disagreement and closed-minded. This is why I was so strongly drawn to the liberal left.

Now, thirty years on, I remain in the same place politically : economically pragmatic/ centrist and socially ultra-liberal / libertarian.

Unfortunately, however, politics has changed around me. The Tories introduced same-sex marriage. The Left has become just as authoritarian, intolerant, illiberal, censorious and closed-minded as the Right ever was, if not worse.

How and when did we get it so badly wrong?

As I stated up thread the left have always been authoritarian. My Russian parents couldn't get the hell out of the USSR quickly enough after the borders opened.

And to whoever replied to me earlier claiming the Nazis weren't socialists, they absolutely were. However they were also nationalists which is where the racism, anti-Semitism etc came in (aside from being politically useful in uniting the country with a common enemy).

Yanbu. I find they can be insufferable, intolerant and condescending.

Well, I voted leave! Where I live that is like admitting to murder!!! I am terrified of all the so called 'open minded', 'liberal' people round about me who would chop my headed off (figuratively!) if they knew which way I'd voted!!

Yes I agree! For some (and definitely not all!) .. It's cool to be 'left' and important to be'open' - but only when people agree with you!!! Otherwise you'll call them all sorts of horrible names and be more closed minded than u could imagine!

(BTW, yes I voted leave, but I am NOT racist, uneducated, bigoted, stupid, naive, gullible, ignorant or any of the other things my (normally very lovely) left and 'open' friends call the leavers!!

Self righteous lefties who claim to have the moral higher ground just becuase they vote Labour are ridiculous

James O’Brien comes to mind

I know just as many good hard working honest caring people who vote Tory as I do who vote Labour people vote for different reason and one big reason is who manages the economy better. And the same goes for who voted Leave and who voted to Remain

I know quite a few who feel their are morally superior becuase they are left wing yet I know far more who are Tory voters that actually do charity work who campaign on local issues who are not all just talk

I was a Labour supporter (not under JC and co but that’s a different thread) but detest how particularly after Brexit people were sneered at and I don’t mean those who voted purely for immigration reasons

I've only read the first couple of pages but I agree with the OP entirely. I am a tory leave voter and used to linger on the Brexit threads but 9 times out of 10 I was call a racist for not being keen on FOM - nothing could be further from the truth. I actually feel we should have a policy which is the same for everyone in the world. I have all but given up on there as there really isn't any proper debate there's just goading. I am also Scottish and this also applies to many independence voters who are completely intolerant of anyone who is a Tory or voted to stay in the union. I have never had such venom and bile spat at me since the Scottish indy vote and the Brexit vote. It's really quite incredible.

People in general are closed minded.

Believeitornot

Possibly, yes, but with extremists I'm not sure it's so much about expecting them to change their views - more just hoping they might acknowledge that others are entitled to their own, instead of reverting to silly insults

That’s not a left or right issue.

I do see the phrase “the left” flung about like a dirty word way more than “the right”. In fact never seen the latter.
you are jokeing I got told after the election I would be comiting litraul muder for voting Tory and of you work in the NHS teaching, the fire service or even higher education sadly these days if you show any view other than the left mantra he’ll even admitting you vote Tory could hamper your careerjust the other day a professor had to resign because he dared to question this non platfoeming shit

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Self righteous lefties who claim to have the moral higher ground just becuase they vote Labour are ridiculous

James O’Brien comes to mind

i know he was firmly against private schools until he had his daughters or course and is for immigration but lives in cheswick witch of you know Hammersmith and Fulham is the whitest partthis is pretty much the way of the left

You should drink the water for the ditch and how good for your health it is while explaining why they possibly couldn’t

Saying right-wing twat, Brexit-face etc is just a lazy handle. There are plenty of insults on both sides.

I think a lot of moderate right wing people now think very carefully before engaging in political debates with left wingers, especially on the internet, due to the risk of being branded Tory Scum and other trolling responses. There is an increasing view being taken along the lines that “you can’t argue with idiots”, so people keep their views to themselves more and more.