To think a lot of left wing people are actually close minded?

[DeepFatFriar]

Close minded as in not receptive to other peoples views.

Disclaimer: i consider myself left wing.

But at the same time, I'm quite happy to have a talk with someone down the pub who might be anti immigration or anti abortion. As long as they've thought their point out properly, im open to debate and i dont feell offended by their views.
But it feels like a lot of the left wing people i come across just go into "racist twat! Fucking tory!" mode- like theyre incapable of seeing that situations are often a bit more complex than just this is right/thats wrong.

For example with Brexit, i voted remain and was gutted by the result - at the same time, i felt a bit irritated by fellow remainers "theyre all little englander tory twats" attitude to brexiters. Yeah, some of them are. Others just have a different POV, you know?

I was discussing this with my mum and she said back in her day (im assuming this means the 70s!) "conversation felt more nuanced".

It sometimes feels like a lot of left wing people just want to live in an echo chamber. I think you need to try and keep an open mind to different points of view. You clearly dont have to agree. But you can at least accept that people have different mindsets because they've had different experiences - it doesnt make them a worse person though.

Not being able to change someone’s political view doesn’t make them close minded. Maybe they’ve thought it through, maybe your argument was pants

Possibly, yes, but with extremists I'm not sure it's so much about expecting them to change their views - more just hoping they might acknowledge that others are entitled to their own, instead of reverting to silly insults

YANBU! It is mainly left wingers

In my experience anyway

I know the type OP. Left wing. Loud. Usually white and rich, degree educated. Love telling w.c people how to live. Pro immigration (because they know the refugees will never be housed near them). Anti-private school. Anti-grammar school. Basically they feel guilty for being privileged. Won't listen to anyone except their own kind. Everyone else is racist or xenophobic. It's people like this that got Trump into Power. And it will have the same effect in the UK too.

Agreed. There's rarely anyone as illiberal as some liberals confronting someone with views that those liberals considers to be "wrong". I think it's because dogma is more of a "thing" on the left, because of eg collectivism - I move in quite mixed circles, but definitely encounter this much more amongst those who identify as left-leaning. Of course, it also exists on the right, but I may have a skewed view as I don't know anyone on the far right.

Also - the sign of a mature and sophisticated intellect is the ability to keep reconsidering all the evidence, and modifying an intellectual position when the balance of evidence changes One thing my many years as a university lecturer has taught me, though, is that an awful lot of people just aren't that bright

Generalising far more than is appropriate: the Right think that the Left are idiots. The Left think that the Right are evil. It's a lot easier to be tolerant of idiocy than evil.

Lefties tend to be better educated etc, so that may result in our conclusions being (to us) more reasonable than the right wing.

If you want to disregard the fact that the majority of high earners are center right and ignore the fact that the "lefties" are more ignorant to politics in a general sense than yes you can cling onto that mantal.

During the last GE, those that vote labour had the least understanding of the geopolitical landscape.

Your "being open to debate" and "not offended by their views" just shows how blinkering privilege is. If you don't challenge hateful views but respect them as legitimate, you're not being open minded or neutral, but you side with the haters against those who they hate.

For you racism and xenophobia might be abstract concepts or merely opinions, but that's because you benefit from structural racism (all white people do) and don't suffer disadvantage from it.

Lefties are the "establishment elite", aren't we? So of course we're better educated.

I wonder whether the trans issue has made some women reconsider their political loyalties, well it has certainly affected some, hence the mass resignation from the Labour party. I think the far left of Labour make it quite clear there will be no dissent and one point of view must be sacrosanct on certain strongly held beliefs and that's that! I've also read many people on MN championing Julia H-B for example, fairly right wing, particularly when she interviewed Lily Madigan and seemingly quite surprised sometimes that they could be agreeing with someone who doesn't necessarily represent their political viewpoint. Countries we perceive as liberal can surprise, Denmark recently banned the burka, I can't imagine that happening here. As someone remarked the Tories are on a par with Democrats, the left wing of American politics.

some not sometimes

If you don't challenge hateful views but respect them as legitimate, you're not being open minded or neutral, but you side with the haters against those who they hate

Sounds great in principle doesn't it? But for me it depends on the difference between reasonable challenge and gratuitous abuse

Personally I've always found phrases such as "don't you think that ... ?", "have you considered ... ?" and just plain "why do you feel that way?" of more value than simply telling someone they're a hater or a bigot

I've been thinking this recently as well - my closest leftie friends are, underneath, some of the most illiberal, intolerant people I know, despite their protestations otherwise.

Great thread OP - the Brexit debate on here has highlighted (for me anyway) that the so called tolerant, liberal and apparently well educated left show themselves to be anything but.

Lefties are the "establishment elite", aren't we? So of course we're better educated.

Being "establishment elite" does not correlate to being politically aware.

There is a reason why there has been a kick back across the globe to the "better educated"

There's rarely anyone as illiberal as some liberals confronting someone with views that those liberals considers to be "wrong".

How can someone be an "illiberal liberal". If they are being "illiberal" then they are not liberal however they, or you define them.

Great thread OP - the Brexit debate on here has highlighted (for me anyway) that the so called tolerant, liberal and apparently well educated left show themselves to be anything but.

Why do you assume that remainers are all left wing? I know many right wing people who wanted to remain and have very strong opinions on those who voted to leave.

Widow - Yes - that's it you put it so well what I feel. Some views shouldn't be politely tolerated as they are nasty bigoted views. If the right let people air those views with a polite "everyone Is entitled to an opinion" you are really condoning that view. But when lefties may get angry about those views then they are seen as in the wrong. Lefties are supposed to be "nice" but niceness doesn't have to mean staying silent when you think something like racism is bad.
And the conservative that just said they also wanted a safety net and proper funded public services and health care - do you really not understand what the current government had been doing over the last 7 years? That's the last thing they want!

It's the internet's fault. It turns everyone into arseholes. I've had much better conversations with people in real life - even if they do get tetchy, you can turn it around by listening to what people have to say and not reaching for the nearest insult as happens most of the time online. I'm not sure anyone ever really changes their mind so the most you can hope for is trying to understand why they think they way they do.

The left’s obsession with identity politics too - I think that is one of the cleverest games of divide and conquer ever played. If you manage to convince people that their neighbours are their oppressors and their enemies just on the basis of their colour or race or religion or sexuality - they’re never going to work out who is actually oppressing them and that’s the people with the money. Some very wealthy people support the left these days and identity politics seem to be a distraction from the fact that the left has all but abandoned ideas about economic equality for the working classes.

Why do you assume that remainers are all left wing? I know many right wing people who wanted to remain and have very strong opinions on those who voted to leave.

I am not assuming all remainers are left wing, but a considerably number of remain voters are, by their own admission, educated left wing liberals (so they say).

Have you read any of the threads on the EU Ref board? They are predominantly echo chambers for a reason.

danci
Whereas no wealthy people support the tories?

Yes, you see it with the anti semitism in labour thing.
'We can't be racist, we're left!'

I am not assuming all remainers are left wing, but a considerably number of remain voters are, by their own admission, educated left wing liberals (so they say).

On here maybe but in real life, probably just as many Tory voters were strongly in favour of remain as Labour voters (or previous Labour voters). The majority of Tory MPs wanted to remain in the EU too. In contrast, Jeremey Corbyn has always been a Eurosceptic. It really wasn't a left vs right wing issue.

If the right let people air those (nasty bigoted) views with a polite "everyone Is entitled to an opinion" you are really condoning that view

Is it really "condoning" though, or a case of getting them out into the open so everyone can see what they are and have at least a chance of offering an alternative view?

We can't tell folk what to think and calling names and crying "you can't say that!!" rarely changes anyone's real opinion, so isn't it better to know where they're coming from - even if it's just so you know who to avoid?