In Connecticut, two teenage boys who identify as girls have come 1st and 2nd in the girls' 100m sprint

[OrchidInTheSun]

twitter.com/GameTimeCT/status/1003739370736816129

Reposted from Feminism Chat as more people need to see this.

Neither Miller nor Yearwood have got times that would be remotely remarkable for boys (200th and 443rd respectively) but they are smashing the girls' records out of the park as now they identify as girls, they're allowed to race them instead.

Watch the face of the girl who comes third. That's pretty much her best ever 100m race. But she didn't win.

Self identification means this kind of thing will keep on happening. If you value women's sport and think that women and girls deserve to compete on a level playing field, please sign the petition: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

"Again I’m not an expert but I believe that the argument is that gender is distinct from sex and the former is performative and socially constructed rather than natural or innate."

What on earth are you on about? How can that turn men into women? (A clue: it can't.) You can't change your sex. You can change the outer appearance to an extent but you're still a man inside, and most definitely not what the definition of a woman is.

Ok, so transwomen are performing their womanhood, by your definition.

How do they do that?

I recommend you read the book I mention, or look up a summary online. It’s an amazing book and there is tons written about it.

By the way, your whole argument rests on the assumption that because you don't care about sport, no-one should.

No i don’t find it any more unfair that a trans man beats a trans woman than that the top paid male athlete earns 100x more than the top paid female athlete. Sports is not a good place to look for or model equality

So you think it’s acceptable for males to play against women in contact sports?

The whole reason most sports (in fact all those where sex gives an advantage) are split into male and female is that it isn’t a level playing field.

I’m actually surprised adults can’t grasp why I wouldn’t want to be tackled by a man 🤨

No. I don't have time for that right now. You quoted it and I'd be really interested to hear from you in what way transwomen are women.

I don’t really understand how anyone can think sports is a good place for equality. It’s a celebration of the strongest body. Fine so far as it goes, but not a great model for society.

P.S.

When you quote another poster, it makes it clearer that you are doing so by using speech marks, or >>> or you can put an *at the beginning and end.

Equestrianism is a good model for sexual equality - unfortunately it's not a good model for socio-economic equality. With athletics, it is socio-economically more equal, as you just need your physical self to start with.

I'm guessing you're not really into sports long - if you were you might have a bit more empathy for the 3 females who came 3rd/4th/5th.

Ha well surprisingly enough I also don’t have time to summarise the thesis of a well known but rather intellectual text because you can’t be bothered to read one of the numerous summaries that come up on google! As I said, I am not an expert and I doubt I would do the subject justice.

longlostpal

You seem to be confusing gender and sex.

Sex is biological and gender a social construct.

How can someone who is not a woman have a womanhood?

It's only ever women's sports that people say doesn't matter, and that it's the taking part that counts. And that the feelings and ego of a male is more important than fairness and even basic safety of women (especially in contact sports). It's just more misogyny under the pretence of being progressive and inclusive.

I see

In what way are transwomen women, though?

You're talking about gender not sex. And you've based your view on one book it seems.

Boneyback - sex is biological and gender a social construct.

Yes that is precisely Butler’s argument. So trans women have adopted female gender but not female sex.

Fine so far as it goes, but not a great model for society

Who is saying it has to be?

Physical safety is a fairly reasonable expectation in any part of society.

"So trans women have adopted female gender but not female sex." So how does that make them a woman? It still doesn't.

I hate this... the radical trans thing is still in its infancy... and just a few years in we have 1st and 2nd places in a girls' race taken by boys - not particularly talented boys as evidenced by their placings against other boys.... We are just going to get more and more of this and women's and girls' sport is going to evaporate.

Having recently watched the movie about how brilliant Billie Jean King was in enabling women's tennis to get the respect it deserves - and being shocked by how recent it was....

I can't believe that girls and women's sporting chances are going to evaporate so fast....

And of course it isn't just the sport - Wasn't it Mexico where for the post of town mayor they had equal numbers of men and women candidates and 21 of the 23 "women" were men who had never previously identified as women!

Help! I can't believe this is happening to our world... and dread what it means for DC

Well, they can't adopt female sex. But they can use their male biology. They can have their cake and eat it.

But you don't care about sport so...

longlostpal

So she is saying that a biological male remains a biological male.

So how can you justify a biological male taking part in a sport that is segregated along the lines of biological sex?

longlost so by your argument, if something can be unequal or by its nature exagerates differences, then it doesn't matter if that unequalness is stretched to it natural extreme?

Do you feel this way about capitalism and poverty? That we should just let societies carry on being unequal without intervention, because captialism naturally advanatges those who have and can get the most ie the fittest, most ruthless, those who start with the most.

Would you intervene to limit the most harmful extremes of capitalism? Or are you a socialist/ communitst who would ban capitalism?

Posted too soon..

Or would you let capitalism have a completely free rein?

I am going to self identify as a 11 year old boy and sit my 11plus or SATS. Or maybe a craft show - boys entry level.
If you object, you are both ageist and transphobes.
So there

I am logging off now as I have somewhere to be.

I don’t really have a strong view on whether sports should be segregated by sex or gender. I can see arguments for both. Ultimately, I don’t think winning at sport is that important and i think it’s bad (for everyone) for it to be treated as important.

Peasooper- my argument is exactly the opposite. If something is inherently unfair that is a clue we should try to de-emphasise it. As I said above, competitive sports favour the able bodied so we should try to de-emphasise the advantages being good at sports brings (eg take away educational /financial advantages associated with it), and let people enjoy sport for its own sake.

But Butler hasn't posted on this thread long you have. Many athletes aren't interested in reading someone's thesis they want to train and compete. Maybe Butler isn't into sports either, probably because they would rather be writing and reading.

and let people enjoy sport for its own sake

By being beaten up by a man....? Not very enjoyable to my mind.