In Connecticut, two teenage boys who identify as girls have come 1st and 2nd in the girls' 100m sprint

[OrchidInTheSun]

twitter.com/GameTimeCT/status/1003739370736816129

Reposted from Feminism Chat as more people need to see this.

Neither Miller nor Yearwood have got times that would be remotely remarkable for boys (200th and 443rd respectively) but they are smashing the girls' records out of the park as now they identify as girls, they're allowed to race them instead.

Watch the face of the girl who comes third. That's pretty much her best ever 100m race. But she didn't win.

Self identification means this kind of thing will keep on happening. If you value women's sport and think that women and girls deserve to compete on a level playing field, please sign the petition: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Say what you like about Catholicism, they do have a handle on reproductive biology.

GladAllOver I hope you are right.

What does anyone think about post-operative adult trans women (with a GRC) in this context? They still retain some of the physiological advantage of being XY chromosomal but they have put themselves through one hell of an ordeal - medical and legal. I still don't think they should be allowed into men's sport - but I am sorry for them about that.

As for allowing this self-ID at school level, please . . .

Say what you like about Catholicism, they do have a handle on reproductive biology.
Althoughthere was one child who did not follow the usual mother and father arrangement. :)

What does anyone think about post-operative adult trans women (with a GRC) in this context? They still retain some of the physiological...

I doubt very much that any man would go though all that just to compete in women's sport, but if they did I think I would have to decline their entry.

As far as women's spaces are concerned I would personally allow such a person in.

I'm not a musical expert, but don't men and women often sing together and harmonise their voices very well ? Wouldn't think there was necessarily an advantage or disadvantage here.

I doubt very much that any man would go though all that just to compete in women's sport

If someone's transition is simply them declaring "I'm a woman" and does not involve any drugs, hormones, or surgery*, the "go[ing] though all that" doesn't amount to that much.

• this declaration-only how things are tending to go these days

nieffimgide As I said, an all-male Group. No other female voices in their devision.

It isn’t unusual for males to be able to sing with a similar range to females. Nor do all females automatically sing high ranges.

A counter tenor can sing with a range of a mezzo-soprano.

It just isn’t the same as a male using his physical advantages his sex gives him to beat females.

I don't think that the singing analogy works.
Mariah Carey famously had a 5 octave range at her peak and I believe that Axl Rose had even better vocal range than that. There would be considerable overlap there.

Jimmy Somerville and Barry White could cover a massive vocal range in a competition.

It's a huge issue in terms of boys v women in the musical world (ignoring any trans issues) and the counter tenor sound which can be lovely (male very high) is not the same sound as soprano but good in its own way.

If there were any complaints how do you think your nephew would react?

Competitions by weight and height sound like a nightmare. Many parents don't allow their kids to be measured for the y6 government data and teenagers aren't going to be happy about being weighed and people knowing what range their weight is in. They will vaguely know if a friend is heavier/lighter but being in a higher category would be shit for the self esteem.

My dd is slim (size 6) but much taller than most of her friends. She already feels a freak for having size 7 feet rather than the size 4 and 5 more common in her group. I've tried to console her that at least she's not an 8 like me.

Separate competitions for trans children is the fairest thing to do here.

ToffeeUpThat was talked about at the start. To be fair, no-one would really know, but if it could be proved that rules has been broken the group would withdraw.

Matthew Bellamy has an eight octave range

As far as women's spaces are concerned I would personally allow such a person in

You have the right to consent to change with males. Go change with males. I have the right not to consent.

Height and weight work within the sexes but not between.

A male and a female of identical height and weight will NOT be matched on strength, or speed, or musclulature or almost any index. Yes, even if the Male has testosterone reduced, before anyone brings that up.

And here we are... back again to endless ‘well maybe if we...? Would it be ok if we...?’ shit...When the answer is NO. NO to males in female competition. Just no.

Oh quite babel. We say no. We don't have to solve a problem about males and male sport. I'm sure that males, being so much more rational, can solve their own problems. Not our circus.

No sorry, I meant more how would he feel himself about the unfair advantage. Would he feel it was cheating and was uncomfortable with it or would he just say that he wasn't breaking any rules and he is now identifying as male so people should just suck it up.

More a moral issue. In the example of the race it is probably more black and white but the issue is the same.

I doubt very much that any man would go though all that just to compete in women's sport

They don’t need to go through anything. Nothing. You just rock up and say yeah, I’m a woman. And bingo. You’re in. That’s what self ID is.

You have the right to consent to change with males. Go change with males. I have the right not to consent.

Of course you have the right.
I would personally not be bothered by a man who had the full physical and chemical treatment (I was replying to the previous poster) but I can understand that others may be more cautious.

They don’t need to go through anything. Nothing. You just rock up and say yeah, I’m a woman. And bingo. You’re in. That’s what self ID is.

Please read the thread before commenting.
I was not talking about self ID.

I was replying to the previous poster who was asking about
What does anyone think about post-operative adult trans women (with a GRC) in this context?

Nothing to do with self ID.

This thread is moving along some interesting areas.

For the people who are , it is about the link below - the Governments proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act, and what it will mean, particularly for women and children.

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

There are already a number of organisations who are currently pushing through Self-ID, AHEAD of any Law changes. That's not legal, or appropriate - but they are doing it anyway......

What does anyone think about post-operative adult trans women (with a GRC) in this context?

I think exactly the same. They are Male. They should not be competing against females. Lowering testosterone and having SRS makes very little difference to the core physical structure. A mans VOmax is higher. His muscle fibres are more dense. His limbs are stronger, with larger more robust bones and more robust muscle attachments. His entire body has been sculpted with testosterone - removing as an adult? The work has been done, it doesn’t put them on a par with women. At all.

In the middle of last year, the International Olympic Committee decided transgender athletes should be allowed to compete in the Olympics and other international events such as the Commonwealth Games without undergoing sex reassignment surgery

So lots more of THIS (pic)

So sad reading about the woman he displaced on the NZ team too[[
gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/03/21/new-zealand-man-gavin-laurel-hubbard-sweeps-womens-weightlifting-competition/]]

rainingcatsanddogs I meant weight and height assessed by eye - not by written records which may be incomplete and are in any event confidential.