to think that Vegans get an unfair amount of hate?

[britchick77]

Having been a carnivore for 37 years, last year I did a vegan month to try and reduce my meat intake – mainly for environmental and animal welfare reasons. My health didn’t come into it (I actually still think it’s slightly healthier for the human body to eat meat). But it felt like the right thing to stick with it, so I have.

I don’t ever bring it up in conversation unless asked, I’ve never tried to convert anyone else, if I go for dinner at someone’s house I’ll eat whatever they cook (including meat). So I don’t consider myself preachy or extreme in any way.

The thing is that I get asked about it All The Time – every time I eat anything in fact. Recently I went out for dinner with a friend, ordered the vegan option, he’d asked me if I was vegan and what the reasons were. He then told me all the reasons why people should eat meat (free range is fine, slaughter is humane, UK has great welfare laws, chicken is better for the environment than soy, meat is healthier for us), and I put forward my counter arguments. It was not an emotional conversation, more of a debate.

He later told a mutual friend (who reported it back to me) that I had become weird and fanatical. As far as I was concerned if anyone was being preachy it was him! He instigated the debate, told me I was wrong and why, then expected me not to argue back when he said something which objective research has shown not to be true?

I don’t get it. Is it the pure fact of being a vegan that is considered extreme? Is it because it makes people feel guilty about their eating habits? Because they think vegans are judging them? Why do people care what I eat, when it doesn’t affect them at all?

@MissMarplesKnitting

The soya for the best known UK/European brands of soya milk/ tofu is grown in Europe, and there is no rainforest in Germany, for example.

Rainforest soya is primarily to feed cattle.

Youre only allowed to be vegan if youre practically perfect in every other way.

Otherwise everyone will be like AHA GOT YOU THERE YOU HYPOCRITICAL FUCKING BITCH. You said you enjoyed that vegan cheese there, BUT YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THIS (insert irrelevent subject)

@lljkk veganism is a belief protected under the Equalities Act. Would you find religious people annoying for their beliefs? Why isn’t it ok to have a name for a particular way of seeing the world, and set of ethicsto live by?

There is a name for people who follow a mainly vegan diet but are not vegan- they have a ‘plant based’ diet and that’s great. The ethical part of veganism has always been there, and if people don’t want to be a full on vegan that is perfectly acceptable.

lljkk I think the 'problem' with people mislabelling their dietary choices is that it confuses others. So if you're cooking for Bob and Bob says he is vegetarian but you cook fish because Sue calls herself vegetarian and eats fish then you're going to end up with a wasted fish, maybe feel annoyed and Bob's going to feel a bit confused about the whole thing.

I wont eat meat ever, but if the OPs friends think oh OP is a vegan and eats meat when we see her, it perpetuates the myth that secretly we're all eating animals products and also leads to misconception about what it means to be vegan.

FWIW I think the OP is making an admirable effort to reduce consumption of animal products.

What someone else chooses to eat or not eat in a restaurant is no-one's business but their own. It's a shame food choices have become so embattled. I am sick of reading about vegan this and vegan that, and ridiculous descriptions such as "vegan chicken", but I certainly wouldn't start an argument about it.

Yup, is better to avoid labels, that is for sure!! Everyone has an opinion on who gets called what.

I was vegan for many years and spent far too many lunch breaks trying to eat my lunch in peace while carnivorous colleagues made loud comments about 'Mmmm, this beef's delicious' , 'Wouldn't you rather have a bacon sandwich?' and the ultimate in obnoxious 'What's your dinner today? Boiled socks?' If I asked them politely to stop it, I was apparently humourless and weird. I was constantly questioned about my choice and got to the stage of 'no comment' because if I tried to explain why I made the choice I was automatically 'getting preachy'.

@Britchick77

In your first post you said...

I am 99% a vegan but eat meat/dairy very occasionally when the alternative would be to be very rude or waste food.

Then further in the thread you said ...

To those who have said I'm not a vegan, you're right.

Can't you make your mind up luv?! You claim in your first post to be a vegan, but you eat dairy and meat sometimes because you don't like wasted food! Then later on you say 'yeah yer right I'm not a vegan!'

You could not make it up.

YOU ARE NOT A VEGAN! YOU ARE NOT EVEN A VEGETARIAN!

Jesus wept!

And as for the 'meat eaters feel judged because of their own guilt' comment.... by @ifyouseeritamoreno

Dream on luv! Meat eaters don't feel guilty for eating meat. If they did, they wouldn't eat it! Not very bright really are you? 😂

Agree with @lljkk that British (so-called) vegans are the worst! And as has been stated a few times on this thread, many people claiming to be vegans are not vegans at all. They just do it when it suits them.

@lljkk
Interesting, I didn't know that about the vegan society definition. But I agree that any discussion that uses a very specifically-defined term can easily spiral into pedantry and cloud the actual argument. For me the label is absolutely unimportant - the fact that someone thought I was fanatical had nothing to do with my calling myself a 'vegan' and everything to do with the fact that I avoid animal products 99% of the time for ethical and environmental reasons (which he disagreed with my argument for).

However, if saying plant-based' is both more accurate and likely to make people not argue with me, then I'm on it!

Re the confusion argument; certainly all my friends know vegetarians and vegans eat, and there is literally 0% chance of another vegan showing up at their house and being fed lamb because their other vegan friend did!

Re the confusion argument; certainly all my friends know vegetarians and vegans eat, and there is literally 0% chance of another vegan showing up at their house and being fed lamb because their other vegan friend did!

Lucky you. If you read threads from other vegetarians or vegans, you’ll see loads of us have been given fish to eat because they’ve seen somebody who calls them self a vegetarian eat it.

@UserV

Cross-poted but that absolutely demonstrates my point!

The label is irrelevant to the argument. I don't care what label you give me or what label I give myself. The point is, I chose to avoid animal products 99% of the time and that's what I get a hard time about.

And as for the 'meat eaters feel judged because of their own guilt' comment.... by @ifyouseeritamoreno**
Dream on luv! Meat eaters don't feel guilty for eating meat. If they did, they wouldn't eat it! Not very bright really are you?

I imagine a lot of vegans/plant-based people (?!) felt this way before they gave up meat. I know I did - that's why I'm vegan now...

lights blue touchpaper and retires.... 😂

One reason I stopped being vegetarian was people assuming I was some kind of fanatic about it, I'm with you on finding that kind of assumption annoying.

Folk would assume I was into animal rights extremism just b/c I was vegetarian. This was in middle of era when we had bombs under cars of research scientists & people chucking selves in front of lorries to stop live exports. That was bewildering, to be mixed up with extremists. I checked out of the game.

I've never, ever been surprised to learn that an acquaintance is vegan; it's out there straight away. Never does it just crop up after a few weeks or meet-ups, like it might with a vegetarian or other specific dietary requirement. It's got to be mentioned, and then repeated usually every time they eat something they imagine non-vegan people will be amazed to find can be produced in vegan form: 'Mmm, vegan cake...' - of course it is, we wouldn't guess it was a bacon double cheese Swiss roll without the reminder.

I don’t have an issue with Veganism but i don’t like the propoganda that turns up on things like social media (yes I know vegans will say it’s nothing like that) that tries to make us feel crap.

I will often not eat meat for days and choose the vegetarian option in a restaurant so I get that meat isn’t essential in maybe ways, but veganism takes that to. Whole new level. I have a very good friend who I saw regularly but her husband turned vegan and now suddenly there is no dairy llowed in the house at all? With 2 toddlers? And you have to think so carefully of what you can take there when visiting.

My friend isn’t even vegan - that is when I have an issue with it. Dictating other people’s lives

Ubercornsdiscoball that’s not an issue with veganism, that’s the husband being a total arsehole. Plenty of vegans/vegetarians live happily with meat eating partners.

I was vegan for many years and spent far too many lunch breaks trying to eat my lunch in peace while carnivorous colleagues made loud comments about 'Mmmm, this beef's delicious' , 'Wouldn't you rather have a bacon sandwich?' and the ultimate in obnoxious 'What's your dinner today? Boiled socks?' If I asked them politely to stop it, I was apparently humourless and weird. I was constantly questioned about my choice and got to the stage of 'no comment' because if I tried to explain why I made the choice I was automatically 'getting preachy

THIS!!! ALL THE BLOODY TIME...I'm vegetarian..
Nowdays I avoid eating with people at work so they leave me bloody alone...Unfortunately my SIL does it too so can't even have a peaceful meal with family anymore..

I really don't get why they do it..I truly don't care what anybody eats but so many people comment on my choices :/

Ok to refocus the discussion then...

No you shouldnt get a hard time about your dietary choices. Have you spoken to your male friend? Why dont you just say to him, ' Ah man, I thought we had a great debate the other day about the pros and cons of veganism, sorry if you felt I was preaching. Just was trying to answer your questions directly. I prefer not to talk about it really - i dont like the label.' And just see his response.

Yes, it does seem vegans get a lot of hate,
however, part of the reason people dislike vegans is because they believe them to be hypocritical (case in point, UserV) No meat eater really cares about what you eat or how you justify it to yourself, people do care if you're a hypocrite or sanctimonious about it - I dont believe you have been the latter britchick, but in response to the OP thats clearly a lot of the problem people have with vegans as well as yes sometimes a bit of guilt.

As for the vegan posts Shatners, we cant win. If I post a picture of a cake without mentioning the V word, people are like 'I thought you said you were vegan!' If I do, the same people are telling the old 'how do you know somebody is a vegan?' routine. And actually some people are surprised when you share vegan alternatives for things, people are surprised it can taste good and that I can have crispy seitan hot wings while they eat their KFC.

I always get asked, what do you actually eat? Thats why we share those pictures or recipes, to show people that dont know these things exist that theyre out there and we're not all miserably living off twigs and leaves.

As for 'vegan propaganda' next time youre watching TV, see how many ads are for animal products, how many meat dishes there are on a restaurant menu, how many instagram hashtags involve the word bacon or steak. We are conditioned from childhood that humans need meat. That is much more 'propaganda' than you will ever see from vegans.

If I post a picture of a cake

There's a lesson to be learned here.

There's a lesson to be learned here

That you dont like seeing pictures of food on social media? Cool. Block people or unfollow them or hide food posts - many options.

I personally like seeing it, the same as I like seeing pictures in cook books or chefs on TV. I like learning about new recipes or new products. I like seeing something a friend has made that they're proud of. I like sharing things that I am proud of. It causes nobody any harm.

So all the vegan posts of how wrong it is to slighter animals isn’t propaganda?? I know and understand some of th conditions animals are killed in. I have made my own (adult) decision. I never criticise people for their dietary choices but if you are vegan it suddenly seems to become fair game!

I dont think it constitutes propaganda, no Uber. Yes its information, it has a goal, but is it misleading? Not really. You said yourself you know what animals endure. So yes, they're not pleasant posts, I dont share those kind of images, I dont believe they convince anyone, but theyre not propaganda.

if you are vegan it suddenly seems to become fair game!

To have your dietary choices questionned over and over again? Yes. Annoying isnt it. And I think that is exactly what the OP is saying. If we all just respect each others choices we dont need to have these debates. If you are happy eating animal products continue to do so, just as vegans will continue not to. Both sides are going to try and promote their lifestyle over the other, of course they are, but thats not being fanatical, its just making a choice and standing by it with conviction.

I've found this thread really interesting. It's certainly made me think about my diet.

I personally don't mind what people eat and wouldn't dream of asking anything beyond "that looks great - how do you make that/where's it from?".

However, what I do find sad/odd is the continued, rude, attacks on the OP denying her the right to use a description of her preferred way to eat because of the occasional deviation. Is it vegans saying this or meat eaters?

No meat eater really cares about what you eat or how you justify it to yourself, people do care if you're a hypocrite or sanctimonious about it
True, although people are very quick to pick up on the hypocrisy of vegans, but there's plenty of hypocrisy among meat-eaters too. I've never understood how people can be so horrified about - and even campaign against - the fur trade, or fox-hunting, or trophy-hunting giraffes, or the Chinese dog festival, or the veal industry, while actively funding the meat and dairy industry which has so many similarities.

So all the vegan posts of how wrong it is to slighter animals isn’t propaganda??
Unfortunately, a lot of those images/videos do look like propaganda, so I don't post them myself, as I've realised they will not persuade anyone and the only effect they will have is to make people dislike me! As a meat-eater I would tell myself that the image was a one-off, or didn't happen in this country, or was vastly exaggerated. It wasn't until I went digging for information to disprove the 'propaganda' that I realised it was usually accurate (spent a fun evening last year wading though FSA meat processing audit results).

No meat eater really cares about what you eat or how you justify it to yourself

Oh right, so your experience as a meat eater invalidates everyone else’s experience? Listen to what people are telling you. We/they get harrassed just for not ordering meat. Or did we all just imagine that?

Oh right, so your experience as a meat eater invalidates everyone else’s experience? Listen to what people are telling you. We/they get harrassed just for not ordering meat. Or did we all just imagine that?

I dont eat animal products, I also dont have anyone I know in real life harass me for it. I believe thats because meat eaters dont actually care about what Im eating they care about the other things I posted above as in being made to feel guilty, seeing hypocrisy or being talked down to. I dont do that; if my meat eater friend makes a recipe that is with quorn, that post is getting a like and a request for the recipe. Not a 'quorn products use eggs and eggs are as bad as eating chickens because all male chicks are killed and chickens are reared in hideous conditions, look heres a link.' I have healthy debates and discussions with people that want to engage but try to keep my points factual and tone neutral. As a result I know at least 9 people in my social group who are reducing their consumption of animal products and would attribute that to the discussions we've had; 3 have gone vegan, 2 vegetarian, 1 pescetarian and the others take vegan options in restaurants or do meatless mondays or vegan before 4. To me that's a great result for kindness and compassion. Shouty judgement doesnt get you anywhere.

As seen in this thread, vegans are not being criticised for what they actually eat, they're criticised for their perceived attitude towards others.

Britchick I agree with you but I think of it more as cognitive dissonance than hypocrisy in those circumstances. I think these people are yet to see the connections rather than willingly ignoring them because it suits them.