Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

LOL

But they think women can become men so it's not fucking surprising they have the reading skills of an octupus

I wasn’t trying to quote her, Terf, I was making her actual meaning clearer to you.

Although manic made that clear herself in her response. Do you often tell women what they really mean?

The reading and comprehension skills of a slow worm. Octopods are actually quite clever.

Was giving them a leetle credit Terf

But yeh.

"that is how the vast majority of natal females wish to be identified. "

I love a good opinion written as though it's a fact as much as the next woman but it hardly helps the discussion

Lol, yes of course there is doubt as to whether most women excluding batshit transmaidens want to be called the women we are or gestators/uterus bearers etc. It's just an opinion some people have

Although manic made that clear herself in her response. Do you often tell women what they really mean?

No, I'll leave that to you.

Point accepted, Purrfect!

The whole trans-law thing is bad law in my opinion; is ill-thought out, conflates gender with sex, is illogical and knee-jerk, and tainted with misogyny, and no amount of New Speak gender-language fuckery will make it right.

This! With bells on.

Because there is literally no downside for women I can only assume the objections here are either based on bigotry or that some of the posters aren’t intelligent enough to understand the reason for the proposed change. Sorry if that sounds unkind.

Because you don't appear to understand the reasons women have given as to why there are indeed downsides, I can only assume the same about you vis a vis intellectual capacity and reasoning skills. Sorry, that probably is unkind.

Your gender identity has zero impact on your ability to get pregnant

Exactly.

There seem to be some deeply delusional people out there who are truly convinced that just by thinking themselves female, they suddenly and miraculously transform into fully functioning women who have periods and babies.

It's like going up to the top floor of a high rise building, throwing yourself of, and thinking that just because you flap your arms really really hard, it magically turns you into a bird. Um sorry to break it to you, guys......

Because there is literally no downside for women I can only assume the objections here are either based on bigotry or that some of the posters aren’t intelligent enough to understand the reason for the proposed change. Sorry if that sounds unkind.

It doesn't sound unkind.

It sounds like the words of someone who doesn't think things through very thoroughly.

manicinsomniac
In your example of a black person identifying as white and saying black people should now just be referred to as people. What gives that one person, ie the overwhelming minority of one the right to decide for all the other members of the black community the right to decide what those members are now called? The answer is they don’t. And it’s offensive to the other millions of black people on the planet. This black person identifying as white would be called out straight away and their argument simply wouldn’t fly, there would be uproar. However, because this is an issue about women and not about race / ethnicity, women are being castigated and bullied into silence and some - especially the younger generation - are even manipulated into agreeing.

I am an ardent feminist, but I do not see how women’s rights are being eroded by the existence of trans people. In fact I think it is far more detrimental to the fight for equality for their to be a trans woman category.

No you're not an ardent feminist. You're just ardent.

Nobody objects to the existence of trans people.

Hundreds of thousands of women and girls object to the presence of trans people in spaces formerly reserved for women and girls, and for very solid reasons.

There is a difference between presence and existence, unless you are a trans person who needs audience participation and acceptance in order to provide your validation, in the former girls' only showers, the former girls' only locker room, the former girls' only swim team, the former girls' only rugby team, the former women's only psychiatric ward, the former women-and-children-only homeless shelter, the former women-and-children-only shelter for victims of domestic violence, or the former women-only prison, where a huge proportion of the inmates can safely be assumed to have been victims of people with penises all their lives.

Terfsup You are totally wrong in your interpretation of the word only. It can be a synonym for merely and it can be a synonym for solely. It's position in a sentence does not alter that dual meaning in the slightest. And I cannot see how you can possibly look at the rest of the post and conclude that I was using it to mean merely. Your twisting of the point is ridiculous.

And the difference between biological women and women in the particular context that I was writing is that biological women includes TIFs who would not call themselves women. In the case of pregnancy I think it's irrelevant whether someone identifies as a woman or not - they still are one. And the furthest I would go towards acknowledging that they don't agree is to call them a bio woman rather than a woman.

As I said earlier, I am very much a TERF in almost all trans debates. But a debate between what different XX individuals feel is very different to a debate which involves XY individuals claiming women's experiences and hard fought rights. A TIF has had a fully female life experience up to the point of transition so I wouldn't want to get worked up about their right to be included in laws defining their rights to bodily autonomy.

Well said math. And a well thought out argument.

JaquesHammer
My dd is heavily into sport and plays rugby. I worry for her. I know this is happening however I still cannot get my head round the fact that you would have to face a mtf trans person on the rugby pitch. Once dd is 12 she will no longer be able to train or play with the boys as it is deemed too dangerous. Yet somehow as if by magic you / she is able to play with people, who have grown up male and have the muscular skeletal structure and strength of a male. Unless something is done, females will soon be unable to participate in these contact sport as there will be a real danger of being killed or seriously injured. Then teams will be all male bodied whether a male or female team. Why not just go the whole hog and ban female sport altogether as the FA did with women’s football in 1921?

dragon I would agree with you if it was a case of the minority trying to impose a whole new word (if gestator was to be used for example, I do agree that's going too far). But to use the word 'people/person' - almost everyone identifies as that! I don't see how not dividing the word to specify which people is offensive in this case because, by the very mechanics of what is being discussed, it's obvious that all those affected are biologically female.

No trans man would be at risk. No GP is going to say "Hey, you have short hair and are wearing masculine clothing, you can't be in possession of a uterus. Get out of my surgery!"

Rubbish. Anti abortion sentiment is still strong in Ireland, that lobby will use any means possible to block people having access to abortion. If that means exploiting a legal loophole then it makes it easy for them. Look at what’s happening in the U.S., where abortion is also legal. The pps saying it’s doesn’t matter as anyone pregnant will be a woman, you are making yourselves look like children with their fingers in ears going Lalala when being told off. It doesn’t matter if you think it’s impossible that a man can have a uterus, they’ve already changed the law so that they can. It’s a moot point. They need to be included in the legislation, it would be a pretty massive oversight if they didn’t.

And your concerns 're your dd and sport are a perfect example of a real problem with the trans agenda - something which allows TIMs into female spaces and rights. That is wrong and (sometimes) dangerous. Making a few concessions to help TIFs feel more comfortable with their own bodies is not.

manicinsomiac
I absolutely get your argument about people. But trans right activists are predominantly male and using people is setting an uneasy precedent, which could lead to all sorts of issues down the line.

Idk if you have read the whole thread. I refer you back to my earlier posts as to why I object to this so vehemently at a personal level. We as women ultimately must have the right to decide how we are addressed and not be bullied into simply being assigned a label.

Every time someone says "women are being erased" on here I just see Nick Griffin's sweaty face shouting "Britishness is being erased".

@math and there are 1000s of women and girls AND FEMINISTS that are not so fearful. You sound like conspiracy theorists you really do. As if the sole purpose of a trans woman’s existence is to sneak into a women’s toilet and whip out their dick!!! It’s ludicrius it really is

So ridiculously ridiculous.

@Strongmummy can you understand why women are fearful of playing contact sport against a man?

It’s a simple question.

@math and there are 1000s of women and girls AND FEMINISTS that are not so fearful. You sound like conspiracy theorists you really do. As if the sole purpose of a trans woman’s existence is to sneak into a women’s toilet and whip out their dick!!! It’s ludicrius it really is

Because TOILETS is the ONLY issue here, NOT!!

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW WHAT CHANGES TO THE LAW ARE REALLY BEING PROPOSED, PLEASE READ THE LINK

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

It will affect every area of life.