To try to access dd’s phone messages?

[CosyLulu]

Dd is 15.5, currently very depressed and off school (3 months) with severe social anxiety. At a social anxiety group, organised by her CAMHS team she got friendly with a boy who is 18 and hasn’t been in school for nearly 2 years.

As they are both at home all day they literally message non-stop. They don’t stop for mealtimes, movies, family gatherings etc. They message until 3am or later some nights. I have talked to dd about this so many times and all that happens is her getting incredibly upset.

Early on, he announced to her that he was in love with her but she made it clear to him that she didn’t feel the same way and I don’t think she does fancy him - dd is 5,9 and he is 5,3 and v small for his age. This doesn’t appeal to her she says it makes her feel awkward.

However they are v touchy-feely together, makes dh and I v uncomfortable and he has tried to talk to the boy about it. It’s hard to talk to either of them as they are both so depressed and anxious. Dh and I have vowed never to leave them home alone together nor to allow them to use dd’s room together.

I’ve never read dd’s diary or seen her phone messages but a couple of weeks ago I saw her diary - she’d brought it in to the lounge to show me a picture she’d drawn. As I’m generally extremely worried about her, I read it. There was a lot of v troubling stuff about her depression but also that this boy had asked her to give him a “hand job” and she didn’t “know how to do it.” I came clean and told her I’d read it and that it was not right for him to ask her to do it, especially as they are supposedly just friends. She made some v weird excuses about friends helping each other out

Anyway lately the boy is trying to persuade dd to go to hs house where they have to be alone in his room as he says the downstairs is messy and chaotic (big family) and they have 2 cats - dd highly allergic to cats.

I have said no. I feel that dd is too naive and too vulnerable at the moment to find herself in a situation with him that she can’t control. He is very clever and she, well, she’s a space cadet really - she listens to him too because he is older. It is causing a lot of stress that I’ve said no and he is messaging her about it a lot. I have said I will talk to them both in person when he comes over on Wednesday. She is dreading it and begging me not to mention the “hand job” part.

I would really like to read her messages from him. I’m so stressed and worried about her that I don’t know if I’m over-reading into this and should give her more freedom. But if he’s manipulating her in some way then I feel I need to know.

Actually I have no idea how to read messages - her phone is locked and she uses so many different apps I wouldn’t know where to start.

I’m sorry this is such an essay but what would you do?

[PratRocket]

I think this thread has been really side-tracked and I don't know what else I can add about phone use right now except to say that it is a recent thing since she stopped school 3 months ago and currently is her only real connection to the outside world.

you're not getting a thrashing (though when lots of people are saying one thing it does feel that way!). You're a good mother and trying to do your best and I can 100% see why you might not want to make this your hill to die on but I've got OCD, depression, anxiety (properly diagnosed etc) and so I know how bad the phone thing can be. And the longer you leave it the worse it will be when the time comes to deal with it.

One of the things I have to do when things get too much is force myself from the internet so I periodically delete my MN account Fb accounts etc. In fact I only signed up again to answer your thread as I really feel for you and your daughter. Do you know much about OCD thoughts? The worries you have are so strong and your daughter will be fixating on this boy/ what could happen to him. What happens if she misses her phone for 5 minutes etc

[Luisa27]

P.S I agree the ‘cold turkey’ phone suggestion would be too harsh - However, I do think having the phone removed from say 10pm - 8am - in conjunction with OP sleeping in her room for a month or so - would improve things exponentially.

[SoFake]

I’m sorry you feel you are getting a thrashing about the phone and I do understand that you are dealing with such big issues that you think her using the phone at night for the time being is beneficial for her. My concern is that if she continues to use late into the night it’s going to hinder her getting better and that the longer she does the more difficult it will be for to stop.
It’s possible she can’t find things to replace her phone use with because she is so exhausted from staying up so late. How is she going to find any motivation to do anything when her sleeping is so out of kilter. I don’t think any (or many?) posters are suggesting that she shouldn’t be allowed it at all rather than she isn’t allowed it late at night. I would have thought her being allowed completely free access to the phone 24 hours a day is going to hinder her recovery.

I also think it’s scary that such a vulnerable child is allowed unrestricted access to goodness knows what on the internet. Take a look at some of the teenage self harm forums or some of the anorexia forums. There are some seriously messed up people on them.

I suppose the best thing is to get proper advice from the experts.

[NotAnotherNoughtiesTune]

I feel for you OP. I've suffered from depression and mostly been medicated with 2 sets of about 2 months off antidepressants.

If your husband is there can you start a routine with her? Little things that aren't near impossible for her to do, but are a goal nonetheless.

Having something I had achieved as well as someone who listened really helped me those 2 times before I was put back on the medication again. These were at age 14 and 17 and were after quite traumatic (to me) times.

Perhaps something like DD needs to be up and showered and downstairs by 10am.
DD comes and chats to her DDad for a bit in the morning.
Perhaps she could be tasked to water the planets or feed the dog, so she gets a little fresh air but doesn't have to be surrounded by people.

Does she have any other friends or cousins that she could spend some time with?

I really do feel for you and your poor DD.

I was in some really vulnerable situations myself as a young teen so I totally get it.

In fact I begged my Dad not to phone the police on someone (14 years later I wish he had!) he was vile to me but fear and fascination kept me glued.

[chocatoo]

Several pages ago I asked if you have had her sleep with you? I notice that another poster has suggested the same. That way she has you there so doesn't need the 'phone.
I also second the idea of working with animals - look up a dog rescue/animal sanctuary where she can volunteer.

[Jengnr]

OP I’m sorry you feel like everybody is going on about something you consider to be a minor issue but it isn’t.

The phone is what is allowing this co-dependent relationship to flourish. It’s the breeding ground for all this nasty stuff.

He has talked her into wanking him off because ‘it’s something friends do for each other’ WHAT?

I agree you shouldn’t take her phone off her permanently but she doesn’t NEED contact with the outside world until 3am. Not least because the only part of the outside world she is contacting is a) grooming her and b) contributing to her already poor mental health.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

[CosyLulu]

I'm struggling a bit here to respond any further. I think I've already said that tackling the phone use is on the list but that right now as in today or the next few days, it would not be a good move. I need to get some alternatives set up to replace it first which I'm working on. She is suicidal and so me taking her phone away at 10pm and sending her off to bed to listen to music on her iPod alone and depressed is a very bad idea. Me slowly encouraging her to turn the phone off at 11pm when she has the school placement starting is far more likely to work because she has to get up. So that's my plan - get things in the day to get up for and start from there. I asked her about me sleeping in the room and she said, "No way!" But she is nearly 16. I've always said if she can't sleep or feels desperately depressed to come and get me - so far she's only done that twice and we sat up and watched Frozen one time and ate a lot of toast the other. She does love me to run my fingers through her hair and tickle her back and arms when she goes to sleep though and when she wakes up in the morning. She also loves massages and I use an offer of those to lure her out to watch a film with us. Sensory things are very important to her and have been since she was very small.

Incidentally, a lot of what dd does with her phone at night is not to do with social media or even messaging the boy - I think he goes to sleep way earlier than she does. She listens to music and watches music videos or memes. Things that make her laugh. Stupid cat films on YouTube. She hates things that make her sad or afraid and avoids them. Dd is very clued up about anorexia and self-harm websites because we talk all the time about things like this and school were always great on updating kids when she was there. I just know she wouldn't be influenced by them. She had a very long mental health assessment at the Maudsley about 2 weeks ago and there were a lot of questions about things like this and, unless she's turned into the world's best liar, they and I were convinced that this sort of unhealthy interest is not going on for her. Dd is a bit atypical for a teenager, possibly because of being on the autistic spectrum; social media isn't really of interest to her. Her phone and computer are escapism except when she's messaging this boy which is kind of escapism too but also makes her tense.

I will be talking to them both about how much they message on Wednesday as well as the other various things I've already mentioned. I'm watching my phone like a hawk today hoping to hear from the special school that I mentioned. That will give me more fuel to tackle issues about staying up late. Jengnr I honestly don't know if he said 'that's what friends do' - that is what dd said, kind of really vaguely. Because she doesn't always 'get' some things it might be her interpretation but I realise on asking her further about it today, she actually doesn't know what a hand job is - she said "can you do it when you're on your period?" So maybe he has suggested that friend comment or maybe she's invented or inferred it it. I am going to find out on Wednesday when I talk to them both and I will make it clear that that is NOT going to happen. Also that she will NOT be going to his house. I have no problem with talking clearly and firmly to the pair of them.

Thanks for all the messages and thoughts and I really appreciated some of the practical advice earlier; some things I will definitely put into place as we, hopefully, move forwards!

My original message was about whether or not I should access her messages and I still don't know!

[TheHodgeoftheHedge]

My original message was about whether or not I should access her messages and I still don't know!

My very simple, very blunt answer would be yes. Personally I would not be letting any 15 year old of mine (let alone a vulnerable child0 have unrestricted access on their phone. I would be periodically checking it and if they don't like that, they don't have a phone. However, if that hasn't been part of your rules until now, I understand it could feel very draconian to suddenly start.
But yes, given the circumstances here the answer is still absolutely yes. She is being groomed, wittingly or not, but an adult (albeit one with his own mental health problems).

[peachgreen]

I'm so sorry if you felt we were ganging up on you OP, definitely not the intention. The only thing I'll say about the phone is that I don't think it matters what she's doing on it at night, it's stopping her from sleeping and that's the issue. I'd say the same if she was reading late into the night or watching films or doing art or whatever. The sleep is the issue, not the phone.

It's great that you have sensory methods of helping her sleep - I'd step those up for a while and I completely agree that it'll be easier to work with her on the sleep thing when she has something to get up for so I think that's a great approach. It's so clear that you're doing everything you can and that you love your daughter deeply, and I hope you haven't been put off by anything anyone has said here.

As for your original question: I don't think you'd be unreasonable to access her messages at all. She's still a child, and a vulnerable one, and she's possibly being manipulated (purposefully or not) by this boy who is an adult, despite his physique. My "friend" eventually faked his own suicide in a bid to win back my attention - he posted a suicide note, ostensibly from his uncle, on a message board we both used. I was extremely naive and completely believed it. You can imagine the distress it caused me until a mutual friend uncovered the truth. He didn't do that because he was evil but because he was very ill - but his illness ended up impacting my mental health and, quite frankly, he should have been accessing help from appropriate venues, not young girls on the Internet. It's the same for this boy. I wish my parents had been savvy enough to read his messages and explain that to me.

I'm not sure how you'd go about doing it unfortunately. I would guess she's probably using something like Whatsapp, Facebook or Snapchat but without seeing her using it it's impossible to guess. Have you seen the screen when she's messaging him? That might give you a clue as to what app she uses. How do you think she would react if you asked her to share them with you, or to give you her phone pin code?

[melodybirds]

I think the phone is mentioned because it means there's a constant suicidal person being a voice in her ear all day everday and wanting sexual favours???!!

She has no other friends
No hope for future
Not using brain or talents for self worth
Absolute boredom
Poor sleep

What are you telling her. This is it. There is no point worth changing. In a year from now where will she be..

Tough love is not caring or telling her to get a grip or not listening. Tough love is not trying to break toxic habits. It's her WORLD

I am totally aware that it doesn't help but at the moment it's the only social life and lifeline she has.

Please take her out every day. Give her reasons why living is fun. A good one is to make it seem like she's doing you a favour. "Please come with me to ... amd help me... " it will make her feel like an annoying burden.

Anyone would get depressed. Self harm is completely understandable because she's in groundhog day and it must feel there is no way out.

[melodybirds]

Sorry if I seem harsh only I had a similar situation as a teen and would have loved to do more. It's obvious you want the best for her.

[Frequency]

OP, I completely understand what you are saying about the phone. My almost 15yo DD is depressed, self harms and talks about suicide a lot. At the moment she is in school, in a fashion. She spends most of her time in the welfare office crying and often goes in late or comes home early, but it's an improvement on last year when she didn't go for four months. Hell would freeze over before I took her phone or punished her for not making it in to school.

I really don't know what to suggest. Like you, I struggle to know how to deal with my DD and worry about making it worse while trying to make it better.

I know with my DD it helps her to talk to someone who is not me. She messages my sister a lot (who, if she thinks there's things going on I need to know about, forwards me the messages). Is there an Aunt or older cousin your DD might feel comfortable talking to?

Walking helps her too, sadly, being a 15yo, slim, attractive girl, walking can also make her worse. She told me a grown man tried to kiss her last week and wouldn't let me report it to the police She now only walks with a friend or our slightly reactive dog who would snarl if she gave him a wee nudge. She often reports men leering at her and shouting from car windows

She's also sexually active, which I don't feel she is emotionally stable enough for, but luckily for me her boyfriend is also 14 and is a really nice boy (and also trans so there's no worry about pregnancy). Again it's a case of a rock and hard place, allowing it to happen is not something I'm happy with but banning her from seeing this boy or restricting the contact they have (i.e insisting they meet here and not at his house which is where the sexual relationship began) might trigger another self-harm event or worse.

The posters mentioning doing more might be on to something. DD is often happier when we're doing something, although as you know yourself, getting someone with severe social anxiety to leave the house is a task and a half. We manage this by doing things in the house i.e inviting family around, arranging sleepover with a few friends, buying the family dog an agility set and going out in the garden to train him as a family.

[Arkengarthdale]

Op I'm a 50 year old woman who has suffered from depression for 20 years. I have also suffered from anxiety and have even made suicide attempts in the past. I know too much mobile phone use makes me feel bad and I'll and tired and depressed, unable to sleep, unable to put the bloody thing down, always tempted to check it. Even watching cat and dog videos on YouTube makes me feel like this.

Please don't let it be your daughter's only thing in her life. As I say, I'm 50 and can self regulate because I know I have to, it's not harmless to have a phone in your face ALL THE TIME. The blue light for a start interrupts sleep even for an oldie like me, never mind a teenager with mental health problems. Please please limit her phone use.

You seem to be waiting for something to change in your dd's outside world, but the best change you can make is to get that sodding phone off her. Don't send her to bed if you know she won't sleep. She will not recover ever if she doesn't get enough sleep. They use sleep deprivation as a torture, your dd is self inflicting that torture.

Sorry to be so bald and blunt but I nearly lost a job through staying up addicted to my phone, it was ridiculous how much I was depending upon it. I thought it was helping with my depression and it absolutely wasn't. And I have much more resilience than any 15 year old could ever have.

Wishing you and your dd all the best

[YetAnotherNewName1000]

@CosyLulu in relation to the dog idea, i would investigate the possibility of a non shedding breed, some people are not allergic to this type of coat. Or if she is still allergic, you could either advertise locally as a dog walking service for an elderly or out at work person, or there is an organisation called borrowmydoggy that matches up walkers with dogs. Good luck with finding a way through this, my feeling is spending time getting her out in nature will help her a lot. If she's arty, get her a camera to take nature photos. If you tap into the home educated network you may find a forest school running near you, which she may enjoy.
In terms of whether you should check her messages... i don't know, i think i would want her permission, as it seems like a gross invasion of privacy.

[CosyLulu]

theHodgeoftheHedge do you have a teenager? If you do, would they really let you check their phone periodically? I honestly don't know any teenager that would just comply with that.

melodybirds and some other people. She has social anxiety - I can't take her out because going out is one of the biggest causes of her problems. Going out and being seen. And I work full time.

Frequency thank you for understanding and offering a voice of reason there.

Arkengarthdale the phone isn't the only thing in her life. And her depression and other problems started long before she started to use it in the night when she felt depressed and couldn't sleep. As she's not at school, she sleeps well into the day so is not sleep deprived, in a torture kind of way. She sleeps around 12 hours a night only not the same hours that most successful kids at school are sleeping. It's hard to change that when, as she says, she has nothing to get up in the morning for.

As I keep repeating to everyone - I am planning on tackling the phone use once we get through certain other major issues. The phone has been a sticking plaster at the moment but an irritable sticking plaster, not one that will produce healing. I'm not stupid.

Anyway, I will be talking to her and the boy shortly.

[smileplease6]

To me it sounds like they're in a relationship and she's embarrassed to admit it to you.

I don't think you should read her messages, as she may be embarrassed for her mother to read certain things. She may have told this boy some personal things and it would be intrusive for you to read this even if the relationship is inappropriate as it would be like reading her private diary.

However, she is under the age of consent and he's an adult so this needs to be stopped. Why is he coming to your house? That said, when she's 16 there isn't anything you can do about it....

[Itsseweasy]

Hope the talk went well last night? Do you feel you learned anything more about their relationship?

[CosyLulu]

The talk was interesting in a lot of ways and generally positive. We talked about messaging and ensuring that there are cut off points. It turns out that dd finds it harder to stick to these than he does. He frequently wants to go and talk to other friends / has family over but feels he can't leave her because she says she's lonely and has nothing to do. I pointed out to her / him that this was daft because there are tons of things to do and I'm always asking her to do things.

The 'hand job' seems to have been quite a red herring in many ways; a mutual attempt to discuss doing something without being 'in a relationship.' They both spoke openly about it but neither of them could tell me what it actually is and they both seem very vague about what their relationship status is. They were looking at each other and saying, "what do you think we are?" They both are very other worldly.

I have said no to her going to his house for now which he was fine with and he gave me his mum's phone number. I've messaged her a few times and I'm meeting her this afternoon to see what she thinks. In her messages just now she is as confused about what's going on as I am but it will be good to get a bit of background about him from her.

So that's where we are.

[CosyLulu]

He also told us last night that he has a diagnosis of autism, which we had both suspected already. He said he doesn't usually tell people because he doesn't feel that it makes any difference to anything - however, if you met him you would known instantly that there is something different about him to most 18-year-old boys.

[peachgreen]

Well done OP. Sounds like you approached it perfectly. Sending all my best wishes to you and your DD.

[NevermindMyMind]

You're dealing with this so we'll OP It sounds like you have your head screwed on and know what's best for your DD.

[SoFake]

That sounds positive. Did they agree to not texting late at night?
I think it's a good idea to involve the Mum. I would never usually say that with a lad so old but I think in this case it's a good idea.

[PratRocket]

The 'hand job' seems to have been quite a red herring in many ways; a mutual attempt to discuss doing something without being 'in a relationship.' They both spoke openly about it but neither of them could tell me what it actually is and they both seem very vague about what their relationship status is. They were looking at each other and saying, "what do you think we are?" They both are very other worldly.

I would have a real talk with dd about her ideas of sexuality and relationships because there is literally nothing more one sided sexually than a hand job,. Sex should be mutually enjoyable even if it's just two "friends helping each other out".

Frequency thank you for understanding and offering a voice of reason there. I don't think anyone has been unreasonable, just because they haven't agreed with you. just informing you about something we know a lot about personally. Med help but they aren't the cure as you know and certain other issues you plan to address first might not happen if the phone isn't in hand.

[CosyLulu]

Thanks all.

The boy's mum has been talking to him a lot about what is and isn't appropriate and he repeats to her that he's not interested in dd in that way. She reiterated that he has never had any kind of contact with a girl or boy as a partner and that she always thought he was likely to be gay. He is quite effeminate. She agreed to them not being in his room if dd visited and said she would clean up the lounge from cat hair etc. so they could sit there and she would be around as well.

It was fine really and I feel confident that she is on the same page as me with everything. He attempted suicide a couple of times a year ago and she had an awful time and so is keen to protect him from upset as I am with dd.

[Ariela]

I note someone mentioned horses, locally there is an equine therapy unit run by a charity to help teenagers with difficulties www.jacoutreach.org/Wp/?page_id=216

Thought it might be worth a mention in case there is anything similar to you