To try to access dd’s phone messages?

[CosyLulu]

Dd is 15.5, currently very depressed and off school (3 months) with severe social anxiety. At a social anxiety group, organised by her CAMHS team she got friendly with a boy who is 18 and hasn’t been in school for nearly 2 years.

As they are both at home all day they literally message non-stop. They don’t stop for mealtimes, movies, family gatherings etc. They message until 3am or later some nights. I have talked to dd about this so many times and all that happens is her getting incredibly upset.

Early on, he announced to her that he was in love with her but she made it clear to him that she didn’t feel the same way and I don’t think she does fancy him - dd is 5,9 and he is 5,3 and v small for his age. This doesn’t appeal to her she says it makes her feel awkward.

However they are v touchy-feely together, makes dh and I v uncomfortable and he has tried to talk to the boy about it. It’s hard to talk to either of them as they are both so depressed and anxious. Dh and I have vowed never to leave them home alone together nor to allow them to use dd’s room together.

I’ve never read dd’s diary or seen her phone messages but a couple of weeks ago I saw her diary - she’d brought it in to the lounge to show me a picture she’d drawn. As I’m generally extremely worried about her, I read it. There was a lot of v troubling stuff about her depression but also that this boy had asked her to give him a “hand job” and she didn’t “know how to do it.” I came clean and told her I’d read it and that it was not right for him to ask her to do it, especially as they are supposedly just friends. She made some v weird excuses about friends helping each other out

Anyway lately the boy is trying to persuade dd to go to hs house where they have to be alone in his room as he says the downstairs is messy and chaotic (big family) and they have 2 cats - dd highly allergic to cats.

I have said no. I feel that dd is too naive and too vulnerable at the moment to find herself in a situation with him that she can’t control. He is very clever and she, well, she’s a space cadet really - she listens to him too because he is older. It is causing a lot of stress that I’ve said no and he is messaging her about it a lot. I have said I will talk to them both in person when he comes over on Wednesday. She is dreading it and begging me not to mention the “hand job” part.

I would really like to read her messages from him. I’m so stressed and worried about her that I don’t know if I’m over-reading into this and should give her more freedom. But if he’s manipulating her in some way then I feel I need to know.

Actually I have no idea how to read messages - her phone is locked and she uses so many different apps I wouldn’t know where to start.

I’m sorry this is such an essay but what would you do?

[CosyLulu]

peachgreen I don't think for a moment that she will naturally change anything including reducing phone usage. I'm in for the long haul here. When she was at school she didn't stay up this late messaging, for instance, so being back in an educational setting will mean changes. What I'm trying to say is that right now me coming on heavy and taking away her phone and her only friend is not really going to help her.

Re. sleeping in her room, I am very open to trying that if she wouldn't mind it. We shared a bed for years when she was younger and I was a single mum and we had nowhere else to sleep.

[CosyLulu]

thornyhousewife dd's room is full of art stuff, movies and books. Sabotaging her phone and the WiFi is an awful idea and if you can cast your mind back to your younger self, you would feel the same. It's too extreme and would really upset her. I've been encouraged to be on her side, be supportive and understanding, not to throw her into deep distress!

[peachgreen]

Well you know your daughter best OP and you're obviously doing everything you can to help her - she's very lucky to have you. When it comes to the right time for the tough love of removing her phone etc (and I do only mean at night, just so she gets some sleep) please do take it from someone who has been there that it absolutely is the best thing for her in the long term. I think making it a collaborative process might work well - when she gets a place at school, talk to her about how you can work together to make it work, discuss her sleeping patterns, figure out together what would help her feel calm and relaxed without her phone etc etc. And definitely sleep in with her for a bit, if only to ensure she stays "on plan" long enough for it to become the norm. Gosh it's so hard, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

[CaptainCabinets]

OP, this phone ‘addiction’ isn’t doing your DD any favours and you know that. You need to start restricting her usage. Get her an MP3 player if she needs music to fall asleep to.

Also, I hope you don’t call her things like ‘hapless’ or ‘space cadet’ to her face

[peachgreen]

Also I totally agree with you that going "cold turkey" isn't a good idea. It really is an addiction, especially if there's an intense emotional relationship involved. Aim to start with a set period of time - midnight to 6am, say - and then work towards a period of 9 or 10 hours (so she can wind down for an hour and get a good night's sleep). I wouldn't make any suggestions yet that she should cut down during the daytime. The first goal should be to get her sleeping properly. Everything else will follow so much easier if you can do that.

Sorry for commenting so much - this situation has just really hit home for me and raised so many emotions.

I should also add that I don't blame my parents AT ALL - they were doing the absolute best they could and thought they were helping me. I did too at the time. And if it helps I am now a fairly normal (!) 33 year old - happily married with a lovely daughter of my own. I've had further struggles with depression and addiction but the skills I learned during that period have helped me through. My sixth form attendance was less than 20% but I passed my A-Levels and although I had a gap year (which I mostly wasted) once I got to uni and found the right course I became extremely conscientious, studied really hard and did very well. This won't last forever. for you.

[CosyLulu]

CaptainCabinets of course I don't and I don't feel like they are cruel terms; she's just naive and a day-dreamer and I love those qualities in her but I was responding to some posters that were suggesting she was 'leading someone on' or that she was 'playing a mental health card to get what she wants.' She's just not like that.

TBH the phone addiction is really low priority in comparison to the other things happening with her mental health. If taking her phone away from her was going to be the cure then obviously I would do it. Taking it away right now is not going to be helpful. It would be mean.

[peachgreen]

Also (last thing I promise!) I agree the phone addiction isn't the problem in and of itself (which is why I say you shouldn't restrict it during the day just now) - for me the lack of sleep and the intense unhealthy friendship was the issue and that was caused by the phone addiction.

[PratRocket]

www.npr.org/2017/12/17/571443683/the-call-in-teens-and-depression

time.com/4974863/kids-smartphones-depression/

edition.cnn.com/2017/11/30/health/smartphone-addiction-study/index.html

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/may/30/teenagers-sleep-quality-and-mental-health-at-risk-over-late-night-mobile-phone-use

edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/health/smartphones-harm-sleep/index.html

[PratRocket]

I think people underestimate the problems with mobile and internet addiction.

[PratRocket]

also what it does to sleeping patterns. Even if the anti depressants work they won't undo the lack of sleep.

[afrikat]

OP I really feel for you this sounds like an awful situation. You've already had some good advice (and some shocking ignorance of MH) but something that struck me was the need to give her something else to focus on- would it be possible for you to get a dog? One that she is responsible for? It would give her purpose and make getting out every day a necessity

[CosyLulu]

Yes but nothing with dd is caused by phone and internet addiction. Her problems started with sensory issues (overload) at secondary school and inability to socialise and make friends, which may be caused by ASD. She also had OCD for many years from age 8, which may also be related to ASD.

She started using her phone at night when she was already so unwell that she couldn't manage at school any more. I am totally aware that it doesn't help but at the moment it's the only social life and lifeline she has.

[CosyLulu]

She would love a dog but she has very severe allergies. It's one of her saddest things that she can't have a dog because she loves them so much. I love them too.

[LIZS]

Sabotaging her phone and the WiFi is an awful idea and if you can cast your mind back to your younger self, you would feel the same. It's too extreme and would really upset her. I've been encouraged to be on her side, be supportive and understanding, not to throw her into deep distress!

Yes it might upset her. But being on her side does not mean avoiding everything that may be difficult to face. She needs an opportunity to escape some of these destructive situations and you as parent can find them, even of she does not appear to agree. She cannot be responsible for this boy's mh and needs to know that it is fine to put her needs and wants first. Give her a let out by coming down hard on boundaries in the relationship, negotiate phone free time ( at mealtimes and watching movies together first) and suggest alternatives for winding down - yoga is a good idea , she may learn different ways to relax and get herself to sleep. Some classes are specifically for teens. If she is not in school could she volunteer at an animal rescue centre or similar.

[afrikat]

Is she definitely allergic to all dogs? Some are hypoallergenic and don't affect people as much. Sorry if you've already been through all that I thought it was just worth covering absolutely all options
You're doing a great job in an awful situation x

[thornyhousewife]

" dd's room is full of art stuff, movies and books. Sabotaging her phone and the WiFi is an awful idea and if you can cast your mind back to your younger self, you would feel the same."

" It's too extreme and would really upset her. I've been encouraged to be on her side, be supportive and understanding, not to throw her into deep distress!"

She is already upset, and what you're doing so far isn't working, is it?

I know it's hard for you to hear. I have daughters myself. I've been where your daughter is. Her addiction isn't to her phone, it's to this 18 year old. I repeat my advice to act now and begin cutting it off.

[doricgirl]

This sounds incredibly hard for all of you OP and ultimately you need to take things at a pace that works for you and your daughter and I can totally understand the fear of removing the phone and leaving a gap with nothing to fill.

This service might be a useful place for your daughter to explore things with an impartial person: www.selfinjurysupport.org.uk/help-and-support-with-self-injury/tess-text-and-email-support-service/

They also take a v holistic approach in terms of what they see as self harm e.g. internet addiction and focus on helping to understand the function or gap being filled by it and exploring v slowly what else might fill that gap that’s less harmful.

Sending you nurturing vibes as it sounds v hard.

[CosyLulu]

I think this thread has been really side-tracked and I don't know what else I can add about phone use right now except to say that it is a recent thing since she stopped school 3 months ago and currently is her only real connection to the outside world.

I am trying to do a massive amount of things to help her actually - she is seeing consultants, we are encouraging her to keep up with art, I take her to movies whenever I can persuade her to go out. And most of all we spend a lot of time trying to make her laugh - dh in particular seems to be quite successful at that.

I think I'm getting a bit of a thrashing over something that really is not the important thing here. It was a supposed self-help group that introduced her to this boy, not the internet or her phone!

[Rockandrollwithit]

Hi OP,

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I had severe MH issues as a teen and it's only now as an adult with children of my own that I'm beginning to understand how difficult that must have been for my family.

I do think sleeping in the same room could be a good idea. When my depression was at its most severe I couldn't sleep and would dread the nights. My Mum would sleep in the same room as me and it was a bit of a comfort, knowing that I wasn't alone with my feelings. Sometimes we would have a film night and then sleep on the sofas downstairs (and I remember my older sister doing this too).

I think the teenage years are very hard on anyone with MH issues as you are only just learning how to deal with it all for the first time. I'm now in my 30s and although I do still suffer, I have many more coping techniques and I would say that my life is happy overall in the long term. I hope it is the same for your DD. It's clear how much you love her from your posts.

[peachgreen]

The problem is that sleep is fundamental to her recovery and without it none of your other efforts will be effective. You're right that the phone addiction is a bit of a red herring (or at least something to work on in the future, not right now) but she really needs to get a healthy amount of sleep somehow. If you can do that without taking her phone away at night that's great.

[crispysausagerolls]

But who is your daughter contacting on the outside world other than this boy? That's why the phone issue is being focused on so much I think, because it's just a direct lifeline for the two of them, and it's a lifeline that sounds increasingly unhelpful and unhealthy. If she were messaging other friends too it might be different (although it is still very bad for her sleep and therefore her mental health to be texting all night) but she appears to be only messaging one person and falling deeper into codependency.

[TheHodgeoftheHedge]

I think Peach and Sausageroll are absolutely bang on the money here.
I know the phone isn't the actual issue here and you must be going through hell here, but you have absolutely no idea what she could accessing on the phone and I think you're being very naive about just how dangerous it can be a vulnerable teen and how it can escalate existing problems.
A truthful, but severely condensed cautionary tale: one of my best friends committed suicide not all that long ago. She had had a history of depression and problems with mental ill health but we had never thought her suicidal. After her death, her partner and I went through her phone. She had been on some hideous websites and chat forums that she had been sucked into where they had pretty much helped talk her into killing herself.

I wish you lots of luck with the chats etc tomorrow.

[LemonysSnicket]

He's attempting to groom her, even if he doesn't realise this.

[lolarosey]

Cosy

Sorry I don't have anything to advise re the "relationship"

Just wanted to say that I had very similar issues as you daughter when I was about her age.
I had awful social phobia and panic attacks. I had to leave school because I couldn't even leave the house. There wasn't as much support available at the time just counselling really.
The people who are saying she should be in school really do not understand mental health. When you have anxiety it is completely consuming . You know you should be in school ! Your mum knows you should be in school. The guilt and feelings of failure are huge trust me, You loose your friends and your whole sense of being.
Op I still have anxiety I don't think it ever leaves you fully.
That being said I am not a 15 year old who cannot leave the house anymore. Time was a great healer. I started off with very small tasks that may seem ridiculous to some people but it worked.
For example I really liked craft so I would say to myself if you finish making this card without thinking about it or panicking you have given yourself 10 minutes of not panicking and that is an achievement. I would bath the dog and tell myself the same thing etc. It isn't easy and I'm sorry to say it took years BUT
I eventually went to college, I made new friends, I learnt to drive, I got married, I started my own business and I am moving to another country next week 🙈. I am not blowing my own trumpet infact when I look back I can't actually believe I have done it. Yes I have had bad days/weeks I have told myself I can't do it thousands of times. I don't have a gcse to my name and it hasn't made a difference.
I just want you to know that the situation with her health is bad now but there is hope for the future. I don't want you to be made to feel shit that she isn't going to school. At the end of the day it is an illness and god forbid she had cancer or some other chronic illness these people wouldn't be saying she should be in school

[Luisa27]

I agree wholeheartedly with peach, crispy and hodge - incredibly wise words from all of them - and many other pp too
In my opinion you’re being very naive OP and by repeatedly deflecting (perhaps understandably) and refusing to accept the phone has any relevance, you’re enabling this destructive cycle to flourish