To try to access dd’s phone messages?

[CosyLulu]

Dd is 15.5, currently very depressed and off school (3 months) with severe social anxiety. At a social anxiety group, organised by her CAMHS team she got friendly with a boy who is 18 and hasn’t been in school for nearly 2 years.

As they are both at home all day they literally message non-stop. They don’t stop for mealtimes, movies, family gatherings etc. They message until 3am or later some nights. I have talked to dd about this so many times and all that happens is her getting incredibly upset.

Early on, he announced to her that he was in love with her but she made it clear to him that she didn’t feel the same way and I don’t think she does fancy him - dd is 5,9 and he is 5,3 and v small for his age. This doesn’t appeal to her she says it makes her feel awkward.

However they are v touchy-feely together, makes dh and I v uncomfortable and he has tried to talk to the boy about it. It’s hard to talk to either of them as they are both so depressed and anxious. Dh and I have vowed never to leave them home alone together nor to allow them to use dd’s room together.

I’ve never read dd’s diary or seen her phone messages but a couple of weeks ago I saw her diary - she’d brought it in to the lounge to show me a picture she’d drawn. As I’m generally extremely worried about her, I read it. There was a lot of v troubling stuff about her depression but also that this boy had asked her to give him a “hand job” and she didn’t “know how to do it.” I came clean and told her I’d read it and that it was not right for him to ask her to do it, especially as they are supposedly just friends. She made some v weird excuses about friends helping each other out

Anyway lately the boy is trying to persuade dd to go to hs house where they have to be alone in his room as he says the downstairs is messy and chaotic (big family) and they have 2 cats - dd highly allergic to cats.

I have said no. I feel that dd is too naive and too vulnerable at the moment to find herself in a situation with him that she can’t control. He is very clever and she, well, she’s a space cadet really - she listens to him too because he is older. It is causing a lot of stress that I’ve said no and he is messaging her about it a lot. I have said I will talk to them both in person when he comes over on Wednesday. She is dreading it and begging me not to mention the “hand job” part.

I would really like to read her messages from him. I’m so stressed and worried about her that I don’t know if I’m over-reading into this and should give her more freedom. But if he’s manipulating her in some way then I feel I need to know.

Actually I have no idea how to read messages - her phone is locked and she uses so many different apps I wouldn’t know where to start.

I’m sorry this is such an essay but what would you do?

[CaledonianQueen]

Hi op, I noticed that you mentioned the possibility of your dad being autistic, as both an Autistic woman and a Mum to an eleven year old with Autism, I personally found that diagnosis and research were the most helpful. There is a fantastic wealth of books out now on girls/ women on the spectrum, I have linked to several below although you may be better looking in depth yourself. I am so glad things seem to have improved for your dd and also that you are in regular communication with this boys Mum.

First up is Aspergers and girls by Tony Attwood
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/193256540X/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Next is overcoming anxiety and depression on the autism spectrum by Lee Wilkinson.
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849059276/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Another book is ‘The guide to good mental health on the autism spectrum by Jeanette Purkis.
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849056706/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

then ‘Exploring depression and beating the blues’ by Tony Attwood
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849055025/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Then ‘Making sense of sex; a forthrite guide to puberty, sex and relationships for people with Aspergers’ written by Sarah Attwood
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1843103745/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Next up is The Aspie girls guide to being safe with men written by Debi Brown
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849053545/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Women and girls with autism spectrum disorder written by Sarah Hendricks.
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849055475/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Next up is ‘A guide to mental health issues in girls and young women on the autism spectrum’ written by Dr Judy Eaton
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1785920928/ref=ox_sc_act_title_8?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Finally is ‘Aspergirls: empowering females with Aspergers’ written by Rudy Simone
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849058261/ref=ox_sc_act_title_9?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[NevermindMyMind]

I hope that doesn't sound harsh against you, OP, it's most definitely not meant that way. I just have my own experience that I was talking from.

[NevermindMyMind]

Great to hear your DD is doing better, OP. Sounds like a positive start for her.

I think some posts were quite unfair branding him a monster but if they were kissing and your DD says it's unwanted then what's going on there? It does need to be hammered home by your DD, you and his DM that this is unwanted. Unfortunately, vulnerable people can be/become predators though, especially in situations of unrequited love. It won't necessarily be something he means to do but can just happen among vulnerable people when one is used to being the fragile one all the time and suddenly is not the most fragile. He is young and situations like this will set him up for the future.

[CosyLulu]

Thanks both!

Things are a lot better! The meds dd started on just over 3 weeks ago are helping a lot at the moment. I turn the WiFi off when I go to bed now. I’m sure she still might message a bit but she is sleeping better and waking earlier. She didn’t get a place at the pupil referral unit we really wanted but has some tuition at a local youth cebtre starting this week. I teally hope that helps her to meet a few new people.

The boy is still around a dd confessed that they had been kissing - she caught a cold sore that he had do it was pretty obvious. She is still very clear that she does not fancy him and doesn’t want to be in a relationship with him so I’ve insisted she reiterate that and they are seeing each other only twice a week and messaging less. Looking back over the thread I think there were some very harsh posts about him. He’s too vulnerable in himself to be a great danger to her but it is an awful situatiom; he loves her and she doesn’t love him.

[VerbenaBoriensis]

Hi OP have just read yr thread. Sounds like yr handling well. Just an idea re: the dog situ just incase yr not aware but there are certain breeds of dog that don't shed hair (eg bison frise but u have to be strict with in training or they rule the roost so maybe not the best to choose)if thats the issue for yr dd. A dog would be a companion for her something to focus on get out of the house etc.
I really feel for you and hope things improve and you both get the support to help you through this. Sending you a hug and .

[NevermindMyMind]

I thought about your thread today, OP. How are you getting on with your DD?

[lightthedarkness]

Well done OP. Sounds as if you've made great progress. Everything is small steps and to have had such discussions both with the boy and his Mum sounds very reassuring. Also you've put in boundaries and discussed phone use at night.
Maybe now you've got the information that your daughter is often trying to extend the phone contact at night there's a discussion to be had with her about self care and sleep (carefully disguised of course ).
I hope that you get some space over the long weekend - you must be under such pressure working full time as well as caring and worrying about your daughter.

[CosyLulu]

Thanks Ariela

[Ariela]

I note someone mentioned horses, locally there is an equine therapy unit run by a charity to help teenagers with difficulties www.jacoutreach.org/Wp/?page_id=216

Thought it might be worth a mention in case there is anything similar to you

[CosyLulu]

Thanks all.

The boy's mum has been talking to him a lot about what is and isn't appropriate and he repeats to her that he's not interested in dd in that way. She reiterated that he has never had any kind of contact with a girl or boy as a partner and that she always thought he was likely to be gay. He is quite effeminate. She agreed to them not being in his room if dd visited and said she would clean up the lounge from cat hair etc. so they could sit there and she would be around as well.

It was fine really and I feel confident that she is on the same page as me with everything. He attempted suicide a couple of times a year ago and she had an awful time and so is keen to protect him from upset as I am with dd.

[PratRocket]

The 'hand job' seems to have been quite a red herring in many ways; a mutual attempt to discuss doing something without being 'in a relationship.' They both spoke openly about it but neither of them could tell me what it actually is and they both seem very vague about what their relationship status is. They were looking at each other and saying, "what do you think we are?" They both are very other worldly.

I would have a real talk with dd about her ideas of sexuality and relationships because there is literally nothing more one sided sexually than a hand job,. Sex should be mutually enjoyable even if it's just two "friends helping each other out".

Frequency thank you for understanding and offering a voice of reason there. I don't think anyone has been unreasonable, just because they haven't agreed with you. just informing you about something we know a lot about personally. Med help but they aren't the cure as you know and certain other issues you plan to address first might not happen if the phone isn't in hand.

[SoFake]

That sounds positive. Did they agree to not texting late at night?
I think it's a good idea to involve the Mum. I would never usually say that with a lad so old but I think in this case it's a good idea.

[NevermindMyMind]

You're dealing with this so we'll OP It sounds like you have your head screwed on and know what's best for your DD.

[peachgreen]

Well done OP. Sounds like you approached it perfectly. Sending all my best wishes to you and your DD.

[CosyLulu]

He also told us last night that he has a diagnosis of autism, which we had both suspected already. He said he doesn't usually tell people because he doesn't feel that it makes any difference to anything - however, if you met him you would known instantly that there is something different about him to most 18-year-old boys.

[CosyLulu]

The talk was interesting in a lot of ways and generally positive. We talked about messaging and ensuring that there are cut off points. It turns out that dd finds it harder to stick to these than he does. He frequently wants to go and talk to other friends / has family over but feels he can't leave her because she says she's lonely and has nothing to do. I pointed out to her / him that this was daft because there are tons of things to do and I'm always asking her to do things.

The 'hand job' seems to have been quite a red herring in many ways; a mutual attempt to discuss doing something without being 'in a relationship.' They both spoke openly about it but neither of them could tell me what it actually is and they both seem very vague about what their relationship status is. They were looking at each other and saying, "what do you think we are?" They both are very other worldly.

I have said no to her going to his house for now which he was fine with and he gave me his mum's phone number. I've messaged her a few times and I'm meeting her this afternoon to see what she thinks. In her messages just now she is as confused about what's going on as I am but it will be good to get a bit of background about him from her.

So that's where we are.

[Itsseweasy]

Hope the talk went well last night? Do you feel you learned anything more about their relationship?

[smileplease6]

To me it sounds like they're in a relationship and she's embarrassed to admit it to you.

I don't think you should read her messages, as she may be embarrassed for her mother to read certain things. She may have told this boy some personal things and it would be intrusive for you to read this even if the relationship is inappropriate as it would be like reading her private diary.

However, she is under the age of consent and he's an adult so this needs to be stopped. Why is he coming to your house? That said, when she's 16 there isn't anything you can do about it....

[CosyLulu]

theHodgeoftheHedge do you have a teenager? If you do, would they really let you check their phone periodically? I honestly don't know any teenager that would just comply with that.

melodybirds and some other people. She has social anxiety - I can't take her out because going out is one of the biggest causes of her problems. Going out and being seen. And I work full time.

Frequency thank you for understanding and offering a voice of reason there.

Arkengarthdale the phone isn't the only thing in her life. And her depression and other problems started long before she started to use it in the night when she felt depressed and couldn't sleep. As she's not at school, she sleeps well into the day so is not sleep deprived, in a torture kind of way. She sleeps around 12 hours a night only not the same hours that most successful kids at school are sleeping. It's hard to change that when, as she says, she has nothing to get up in the morning for.

As I keep repeating to everyone - I am planning on tackling the phone use once we get through certain other major issues. The phone has been a sticking plaster at the moment but an irritable sticking plaster, not one that will produce healing. I'm not stupid.

Anyway, I will be talking to her and the boy shortly.

[YetAnotherNewName1000]

@CosyLulu in relation to the dog idea, i would investigate the possibility of a non shedding breed, some people are not allergic to this type of coat. Or if she is still allergic, you could either advertise locally as a dog walking service for an elderly or out at work person, or there is an organisation called borrowmydoggy that matches up walkers with dogs. Good luck with finding a way through this, my feeling is spending time getting her out in nature will help her a lot. If she's arty, get her a camera to take nature photos. If you tap into the home educated network you may find a forest school running near you, which she may enjoy.
In terms of whether you should check her messages... i don't know, i think i would want her permission, as it seems like a gross invasion of privacy.

[Arkengarthdale]

Op I'm a 50 year old woman who has suffered from depression for 20 years. I have also suffered from anxiety and have even made suicide attempts in the past. I know too much mobile phone use makes me feel bad and I'll and tired and depressed, unable to sleep, unable to put the bloody thing down, always tempted to check it. Even watching cat and dog videos on YouTube makes me feel like this.

Please don't let it be your daughter's only thing in her life. As I say, I'm 50 and can self regulate because I know I have to, it's not harmless to have a phone in your face ALL THE TIME. The blue light for a start interrupts sleep even for an oldie like me, never mind a teenager with mental health problems. Please please limit her phone use.

You seem to be waiting for something to change in your dd's outside world, but the best change you can make is to get that sodding phone off her. Don't send her to bed if you know she won't sleep. She will not recover ever if she doesn't get enough sleep. They use sleep deprivation as a torture, your dd is self inflicting that torture.

Sorry to be so bald and blunt but I nearly lost a job through staying up addicted to my phone, it was ridiculous how much I was depending upon it. I thought it was helping with my depression and it absolutely wasn't. And I have much more resilience than any 15 year old could ever have.

Wishing you and your dd all the best

[Frequency]

OP, I completely understand what you are saying about the phone. My almost 15yo DD is depressed, self harms and talks about suicide a lot. At the moment she is in school, in a fashion. She spends most of her time in the welfare office crying and often goes in late or comes home early, but it's an improvement on last year when she didn't go for four months. Hell would freeze over before I took her phone or punished her for not making it in to school.

I really don't know what to suggest. Like you, I struggle to know how to deal with my DD and worry about making it worse while trying to make it better.

I know with my DD it helps her to talk to someone who is not me. She messages my sister a lot (who, if she thinks there's things going on I need to know about, forwards me the messages). Is there an Aunt or older cousin your DD might feel comfortable talking to?

Walking helps her too, sadly, being a 15yo, slim, attractive girl, walking can also make her worse. She told me a grown man tried to kiss her last week and wouldn't let me report it to the police She now only walks with a friend or our slightly reactive dog who would snarl if she gave him a wee nudge. She often reports men leering at her and shouting from car windows

She's also sexually active, which I don't feel she is emotionally stable enough for, but luckily for me her boyfriend is also 14 and is a really nice boy (and also trans so there's no worry about pregnancy). Again it's a case of a rock and hard place, allowing it to happen is not something I'm happy with but banning her from seeing this boy or restricting the contact they have (i.e insisting they meet here and not at his house which is where the sexual relationship began) might trigger another self-harm event or worse.

The posters mentioning doing more might be on to something. DD is often happier when we're doing something, although as you know yourself, getting someone with severe social anxiety to leave the house is a task and a half. We manage this by doing things in the house i.e inviting family around, arranging sleepover with a few friends, buying the family dog an agility set and going out in the garden to train him as a family.

[melodybirds]

Sorry if I seem harsh only I had a similar situation as a teen and would have loved to do more. It's obvious you want the best for her.

[melodybirds]

I think the phone is mentioned because it means there's a constant suicidal person being a voice in her ear all day everday and wanting sexual favours???!!

She has no other friends
No hope for future
Not using brain or talents for self worth
Absolute boredom
Poor sleep

What are you telling her. This is it. There is no point worth changing. In a year from now where will she be..

Tough love is not caring or telling her to get a grip or not listening. Tough love is not trying to break toxic habits. It's her WORLD

I am totally aware that it doesn't help but at the moment it's the only social life and lifeline she has.

Please take her out every day. Give her reasons why living is fun. A good one is to make it seem like she's doing you a favour. "Please come with me to ... amd help me... " it will make her feel like an annoying burden.

Anyone would get depressed. Self harm is completely understandable because she's in groundhog day and it must feel there is no way out.

[peachgreen]

I'm so sorry if you felt we were ganging up on you OP, definitely not the intention. The only thing I'll say about the phone is that I don't think it matters what she's doing on it at night, it's stopping her from sleeping and that's the issue. I'd say the same if she was reading late into the night or watching films or doing art or whatever. The sleep is the issue, not the phone.

It's great that you have sensory methods of helping her sleep - I'd step those up for a while and I completely agree that it'll be easier to work with her on the sleep thing when she has something to get up for so I think that's a great approach. It's so clear that you're doing everything you can and that you love your daughter deeply, and I hope you haven't been put off by anything anyone has said here.

As for your original question: I don't think you'd be unreasonable to access her messages at all. She's still a child, and a vulnerable one, and she's possibly being manipulated (purposefully or not) by this boy who is an adult, despite his physique. My "friend" eventually faked his own suicide in a bid to win back my attention - he posted a suicide note, ostensibly from his uncle, on a message board we both used. I was extremely naive and completely believed it. You can imagine the distress it caused me until a mutual friend uncovered the truth. He didn't do that because he was evil but because he was very ill - but his illness ended up impacting my mental health and, quite frankly, he should have been accessing help from appropriate venues, not young girls on the Internet. It's the same for this boy. I wish my parents had been savvy enough to read his messages and explain that to me.

I'm not sure how you'd go about doing it unfortunately. I would guess she's probably using something like Whatsapp, Facebook or Snapchat but without seeing her using it it's impossible to guess. Have you seen the screen when she's messaging him? That might give you a clue as to what app she uses. How do you think she would react if you asked her to share them with you, or to give you her phone pin code?