To try to access dd’s phone messages?

[CosyLulu]

Dd is 15.5, currently very depressed and off school (3 months) with severe social anxiety. At a social anxiety group, organised by her CAMHS team she got friendly with a boy who is 18 and hasn’t been in school for nearly 2 years.

As they are both at home all day they literally message non-stop. They don’t stop for mealtimes, movies, family gatherings etc. They message until 3am or later some nights. I have talked to dd about this so many times and all that happens is her getting incredibly upset.

Early on, he announced to her that he was in love with her but she made it clear to him that she didn’t feel the same way and I don’t think she does fancy him - dd is 5,9 and he is 5,3 and v small for his age. This doesn’t appeal to her she says it makes her feel awkward.

However they are v touchy-feely together, makes dh and I v uncomfortable and he has tried to talk to the boy about it. It’s hard to talk to either of them as they are both so depressed and anxious. Dh and I have vowed never to leave them home alone together nor to allow them to use dd’s room together.

I’ve never read dd’s diary or seen her phone messages but a couple of weeks ago I saw her diary - she’d brought it in to the lounge to show me a picture she’d drawn. As I’m generally extremely worried about her, I read it. There was a lot of v troubling stuff about her depression but also that this boy had asked her to give him a “hand job” and she didn’t “know how to do it.” I came clean and told her I’d read it and that it was not right for him to ask her to do it, especially as they are supposedly just friends. She made some v weird excuses about friends helping each other out

Anyway lately the boy is trying to persuade dd to go to hs house where they have to be alone in his room as he says the downstairs is messy and chaotic (big family) and they have 2 cats - dd highly allergic to cats.

I have said no. I feel that dd is too naive and too vulnerable at the moment to find herself in a situation with him that she can’t control. He is very clever and she, well, she’s a space cadet really - she listens to him too because he is older. It is causing a lot of stress that I’ve said no and he is messaging her about it a lot. I have said I will talk to them both in person when he comes over on Wednesday. She is dreading it and begging me not to mention the “hand job” part.

I would really like to read her messages from him. I’m so stressed and worried about her that I don’t know if I’m over-reading into this and should give her more freedom. But if he’s manipulating her in some way then I feel I need to know.

Actually I have no idea how to read messages - her phone is locked and she uses so many different apps I wouldn’t know where to start.

I’m sorry this is such an essay but what would you do?

[itsBritneyBeach]

OP, I am almost 21 now and I was 15 when I was going through something almost identical to the situation you describe. CAHMS were crap (in my experience, I know that NHS treatment is under pressure and I am sure they have helped others) and I could text all day and night. I used to have such low confidence issues that any boy who talked to me I thought "might as well, can't get any better" or along those lines. I ended up being pressured into things such as hand jobs and blow jobs etc, and molested at a party I went to when my confidence was back by the same boys I thought I could trust.

A large part of it was just feeling like you couldn't say no, and a bad reaction from someone I thought was a friend would have sent my confidence to rock bottom even further. I think it's sort of a coping mechanism, almost like you feel needed. But, having said this, the age difference is very worrying and I think gaslighting and emotional abuse of sorts will be taking place. Perhaps not regularly, but it will be there.

I wish my mum had stepped in like you have, but she doesn't really understand mental health issues. Even now I am still ill and she doesn't know how to address it.

I dropped out of school for a while and now I am at a top 10 university, working with some amazing companies and I never would have thought it possible when I was 15.

You are an amazing parent for understanding your DDs situation and I truly wish you all the best. It will get better

[HateTheDF]

OP,

They both seem very reliant on each other and that's not healthy for either of them. Your daughter probably feels like he's the only one she can really talk too (nothing against you but we generally don't tell or talk to our parents about everything). I think you need to find someone else who she can click with, make friends and talk to and slowly cut down the time she is talking to him.

It sounds like she couldn't do it in real life, especially with no school but there are other options.

A few years ago I was depressed and struggling with social anxiety and I really couldn't go out and make friends but I did make some 'online friends' who I didn't know but I felt like I could talk too and talk about anything because they didn't know who I was.

It obviously comes with it's own dangers, i.e if she wants to meet up with them (I never did and wouldn't recommend it) but there are plenty of websites where you can make 'online penpals' so it might be an idea to get her talking to someone else.

When I felt better I also became on online 'therapist' (not qualified but just someone for people feeling depressed to talk too.

A lot of people I know who have been depressed get a lot of comfort or happiness from their online friends. It does sound sad but I do know a few people it has helped.

I'm so sorry you're both going through this and you can always DM me.

[Luisa27]

What a horrible situation for your daughter OP....poor girl

I totally agree with ligtthedarkness and would be arranging ‘activities’ each evening to strengthen her attachment to, and awareness of, the outside world...ie anything that doesn’t involve the 18 year old and her phone. Cinema, haircut, walks, swimming, yoga...whatever. And I’d do this every evening - no matter how knackered or tight for money we were. This cycle of her whole world being just him and her phone needs to be broken for her MH - and I think arranging lovely things to do together may be the way forward.

I also agree with blueflorals - you’re her parent. You need to step up and parent her appropriately. The ‘phone all night’ situation is not healthy, and should never have been normalised. Surely this didn’t all just ‘happen’ overnight - why on earth did the concept of a 14/15 yr old having a phone 24/7 ever become an acceptable ‘thing’ in your family? I think this is deeply deeply damaging to her mental health.

As for the 18 yr old who asks for hand jobs, tries to get her to go to his house alone etc - I’m afraid i find it utterly baffling that you even begin to think this is remotely anything other than hugely creepy at best, and verging on the abusive at worst? Your daughter is vulnerable in the extreme and I really feel your tactics aren’t addressing the core problems.

Another thought crossed my mind - are you able to take time off work to really try and overcome this issue? Is there any way this would be do-able? If you were around 24/7 for a few weeks at home - or maybe a cheap n cheerful road trip, or an inexpensive month away somewhere? Just the two of you? Is anything like this possible at all? I think if you’re going to resolve this problem in the long term, then more decisive action is needed.

[Luisa27]

P.S. As waterrat says, ordinarily I’d have no problem if my DD had a boyfriend 3 years left than her at this age - as long as respect was paramount. I agree - this is pretty normal stuff - my BF at 16 was 3 years older than me. However, this isn’t a typical situation, and your daughter is more susceptible, and vulnerable to outside influences - and to be truthful - he doesn’t sound a particularly healthy one for myriad of reasons

[Claire90ftm]

I would have set that as the rule for having a phone. "I always get to look at your phone whenever I ask to." they need to be checked because children don't know the dangers.

[CosyLulu]

I'm overwhelmed by the amazing responses you're giving me - thank you so much. It's really sad to hear how many people have been in the same situation but also lovely to hear that there is sometimes also light at the end of the tunnel.

waterrat I question this in myself all the time. And I've said to dd that if she was telling me she wanted to be in a relationship with him, I would feel differently about it all. I'd still want to protect her of course but I had an 18-year-old boyfriend when I was nearly 16 and we were totally in love for about 4 years. Dd is adamant that she isn't in love and doesn't want a romantic relationship with this boy; she likes his company and she's lonely, he's clever and they have a similar sense of humour. But the difference is that he is very attracted to her and she is not to him. And I think he is desperate to change that and is manipulating her because she really is daft, in a very loveable way, she would do anything for anybody and is very easy to manipulate emotionally.

Luisa27 I don't know if you have teenaged kids but in my experience, all of dd's friends have their phones in their rooms and have done for a lot longer than she did. I was 'mean mum' and made her plug her phone in the office to charge at 9pm. When she began to have depression she asked to have it so that she could listen to her music to help her sleep. She was still at school then and it seemed to help. She's not a chaotic person and knew when to switch it off. She's only been using it for music and distraction since her mental health got so bad that being left to her own thoughts was leading her to suicidal thoughts, self harming etc. For a while we used music and tried watching cosy favourite films like Disney movies. But I literally couldn't stay up with her all night and so we've ended up where we are. You wouldn't know unless you were here really how this has happened. I know it's bad for her - CAMHS approach for someone in her condition is to seek distraction wherever possible to avoid suicidal thoughts. She is in that much of a dangerous state. I would not sleep for weeks if I was leaving her in the room with nothing to take her mind off her thoughts at the moment. Often I think she should be in hospital ,being monitored but she hates the idea.

HatetheDF your story is so sad and I'm sorry your mum wasn't there for you. My father suffered severe depression and so I have been used to having it around I suppose. I also work in the health industry and so I know to take it seriously and as an illness, not as a manipulative tool as some PPs here have suggested. I'm glad you're better and doing as well as you can.

itsBritneyBeach I can so see how that could happen and how chaotic life can become with no support. You've done amazingly well though! Wow.

LIZS no help for us so far except the parent group I mentioned earlier. I think CAMHS is stretched to the limit. I've placed three emergency calls yesterday and two today and had no reply.

[PratRocket]

I know some of the posts previously have seen harsh and unhelpful OP and I totally get what you mean about "survival mode" ... but you're going to have to take away the phone and stop your daughter form seeing this boy.

At the moment he is one more problem for her and she feels responsible for him, you need to take that responsibility away from her for him.

I don't have a daughter in that situation but I was your daughter. Depression is never helped by 24/7 access to the internet, trust me on this. She needs a hobby, either to volunteer or even better if school is not currently an option go on FB right now and search for the name of your town and "home ed" home education etc. There will be other teenagers at home doing stuff and she can be too. She needs her day planned even only a few hours a day. She needs to be outside in the sun. There are probably lots of events on.

The problem is MH spirals and survival mode where you allow the thing that is making it worse means no way out of the spiral.

She needs exercise and fresh air to help her sleep at night. No tablets/ TV after 9.

Get her a old school mobile no internet, new phone number and don't let her see this boy again.

Good luck.

[CosyLulu]

kerplunk thank you for that link. I will mention it to dd later.

YetAnotherNewName1000 She would love to do dog walking or something like that. I don't know how she'd go about it though or if people would think she's a bit young?

kingsley one of my horrible thoughts is that my attempts at 'tough love' when dd first became ill made her so much worse. I replay things over in my mind and feel so guilty looking back. My mum was a 'tough love' person and so I suppose I was repeating some of that. I've re-thought though, quite a long while ago now, and that is all stopped. Unfortunately dd is very schedule resistant - one of her neurological issues is that she can't 'plan' or follow plans easily. I think it was one of the reasons that school became so difficult for her. She was okay at primary - one classroom, same teacher, no timetable to worry about. At secondary it all started to fall apart and she could never cope with time table, finding classrooms, managing homework. I think it's a part of autism known as 'demand avoidance.' If she feels the pressure of a timescale she gets sort of overwhelmed and stressed. Interesting about B12 deficiency ... dd has just had a lot of blood tests and I think that was one. I will chase it up.

[PratRocket]

Oh and get her a cd player if she needs music. And maybe some white noise/whals song/ whatever cds for her room too.

[SweetCheeks1980]

@PratRocket I agree with everything you just said.

[PratRocket]

• "you need to take that responsibility away from her for her"
  
  that should have said.

[peachgreen]

I was your DD when I was 16. Depressed, in an unhealthy "relationship" with an older boy that mostly revolved around messaging each other at all hours, refusing / unable to go to school, not sleeping, self harming. My parents allowed me to continue messaging for the same reason you are doing so - they felt it would be doing more harm than good to stop me and I made such a fuss (not anger but sadness) if they ever suggested it wasn't good for me.

All I can say is that I fervently wish that they had forced me to stop - the unhealthy contact and the lack of sleep was 100% contributing to my poor mental health and I lost a good three or four years of my life. I neglected all my hobbies, I lost my friends, I forgot how to function as a normal person. It took decades to get over.

Please consider taking her phone away at night. Get her an MP3 player, art supplies, books, DVDs, computer games - whatever you think might work as a distraction. Late night radio worked for me. And explain why you're doing it and ask her to work with you on it to improve her mental health.

I feel so sorry for you and for her. I wish I could speak to her as someone who has been in her position. If that's something you feel might be helpful in any way please PM me as I would be more than happy to email her via you. (I know you don't know me from Adam but I just feel desperately sorry for you both and wanted to offer.)

[CosyLulu]

PratRocket I hope we will get there but at the moment I can't do either of those things without putting her at severe risk. It will have to happen eventually but not right now.

[CosyLulu]

Thanks peachgreen at the moment I have two things that I'm waiting for - firstly to see if the antidepressants start to help and secondly to see if she gets a place at the pupil referral unit to study. These are both very close to happening. As soon as the latter happens then things WILL start to change as she will have a structure back to the day and hopefully the antidepressants will kick in. As she becomes out of immediate danger at night then I can start to think about the next stages, i.e. phone use which I am assuming will become less as she'll be more naturally tired.

[PratRocket]

Cosy how do you see things changing if you don't change what you are doing? I know it's much easier for us to tell you what to do then for you to anything that you feels risk your daughter, but please listen to those of who have been there. In fact those of us who still do suffer from serious bouts of depression.

[Luisa27]

Yes OP - our eldest (4DC) is a teenager, I have 3 sisters and a brother who all have teenagers too. And of course, lots of friends. So I do have an idea of how to limit phone usage. I’m sorry but the ‘everyone else does it’ doesn’t wash with me - no, everyone else doesn’t do it. And even if they did..,so what?

Of course, I totally get that I can’t possibly understand your situation fully unless I’m there with you? But I do think it’s sometimes clearer for those looking in on a situation ( or what you’ve explained to us in this case) without the weight of emotional attachment.

I’d echo what others have said - if your daughter ‘needs’ the phone to listen to music then provide a ‘night time’ phone without internet access - very simple solution

[PratRocket]

OK I see you are waiting on antidepression tablets, sorry. I hope they work, but it can often take a tries at different kinds to get them to do what they should do, and they unfortunately, don't work for everyone. I know none of the MH orgs that you are dealing with have been any use about dealing with the boy but they must have had some advice for you on how to handle the phone and him?

[PratRocket]

Consider the possibility of it taking 6 months to a year to get the tablet and the dosage correct for your daughter. Then go from there, is it OK for things to carry on for a year in this way.

I hate to say this when you have enough on your plate but it is not uncommon for a young woman who is feeling alone or depressed to think that babies are a way out of that depression. No matter how sensible your daughter might seem about that sort of thing. I remember having those feelings and as this boy is coming from a situation where teen pregnancy is normalised it would be a worry for me.

[PratRocket]

Babies (to someone who has never had one!) can seem like a sort of perfect love. It's hard to understand you don't really get much back from them for a while.

[Luisa27]

One more thing crossed my mind OP ....do you sleep with DD in her room at night? Just a thought as a friend of ours’ daughter had a period of suffering from terrible anxiety/ panic attacks, and her mum dragged in a mattress and slept in there for a few weeks. This was following a very traumatic event in their family...but it worked. Maybe this could help as your daughter is so distressed and anxious through the night?

[Luisa27]

@peachgreen - what a lovely, lovely post 💕

OP please listen to peach - she’s talking lots of sense (IMO)

[CosyLulu]

I'm genuinely not averse to changing things but I am choosing my moment. One of the things I'm going to talk to them both about on Wednesday is how much contact they have by phone and how they have to cut that, in the daytime, not just at night.

I am certain that dd isn't thinking about babies. She has absolutely no interest or liking of babies at all and she talks with horror about the boy's home life situation. I'm not worried about that. I don't think she even really wants to be with him but she has no other options and she doesn't want him to be sad.

I am listening and I am definitely not against taking charge and being responsible but it is very hard for me to take away something when I have nothing to replace it with; she has very little in her life that gives her any kind of pleasure and, unfortunately, CAMHS have said to her and to me that she should seek escape in whichever way possible. They see it that even if she is motivated to be messaging, then it's still motivation. When there is no motivation, then things could be dangerous for her.

As soon as I can put some replacement things in her life, we can tackle the other issues.

[peachgreen]

Can I ask how long she's been on the anti-depressants? They definitely take a while to kick in so that makes sense. However I think you're being (understandably) naive in assuming that she'll naturally reduce her own phone usage when she has more structure to her day. My parents assumed the same about me going to Sixth Form. It didn't work. I had to get up at 5.30am to get the bus and still stayed up every night until 3 or 4am messaging. I was weeping with exhaustion but did it anyway. It was an addiction, worse than anything I've ever experienced before or since, and it genuinely wasn't in my power to restrict or limit myself.

I agree with @Luisa27 that it might be good to sleep in her room with her for a while. That would have helped me.

[ForTheLoveOfCrispyCreme]

I think you are doing the right thing sitting them down and speaking to them both.

It will be awkward and they will both hate it. But I think it's important to discuss all the points you've mentioned above. For both of them.

[thornyhousewife]

Hi op, I had a similar experience to @peachgreen.

I think you should consider buying the art equipment/baking stuff/computer games/films/tickets today.

Then I would sabotage the WiFi and phone chargers, accidentally drop her phone in water, something to begin the process of detachment.

I feel sick reading this thread as it brings back the feelings I had as a 15/16/17 year old.

Please don't wait.