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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Women who have children before marriage

968 replies

FissionChips · 22/05/2018 01:20

..but get upset when their partner does not want to/ has not asked to marry them , yet still insist they are too traditional to even contemplate asking their dp to marry them or just discussing it like adults.

I dont get it. Most of the complaining women give the child their partners surname as well which isn’t even traditional if the parents are not married. They live together for years. They are in no way following tradition.
AIBU to not understand why they lie about being “traditional “?

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 22/05/2018 01:26

They want their DP to want to marry them and to take a proactive role.

Some are also in denial. Once you start that conversation, you are in danger of hearing things that you don't want to.

I don't understand why they give their children the Father's Surname, tbh, including my own DD.

AssassinatedBeauty · 22/05/2018 01:29

They're not lying, that's harsh. They're presumably too caught up in female socialisation to contemplate being the one that does the asking in a relationship. "Traditional" may be an awkward label to try and explain why they feel uncomfortable asking directly to get married. Or they're worried that their partner would say no, and they don't want to face up to that perhaps. And, surely it's possible to be traditional in some areas of your life but not in others?

Original poster
FissionChips · 22/05/2018 01:31

But why would they have not insisted on marriage before pregnancy or birth if its so important to them? It doesn’t even cost very much.

OP posts:
Original poster
FissionChips · 22/05/2018 01:32

How can you be too uncomfortable to ask your partner to marry you but not to let them impregnate you?!

It’s odd!

OP posts:
Sparkles1992 · 22/05/2018 01:38

I think a lot of people prioritise having children first as babies and weddings are big expenditures, I don't think it's unreasonable to still want your Dp to propose to you though just because you've not followed the traditional order. I don't think men should think ah well we've had a baby now no need to propose! Hmm

BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil · 22/05/2018 01:39

Eh- I have three kids who have my surname legally but go by their father's. It made him happy and I couldnt care less what they go by tbh.

Marriage cements a lot of legal rights and entitlements unavailable to unmarried couples (where I am) so I can see the reason for wanting marriage after babies. Ironically, a marriage is far more of a legal contract than having a child with someone!

I would want my OH to propose to me. Simply for my magical Cinderella moment that inner 6yo Disney loving me wants. My OH would also want to be the one to propose though. We've agreed we will get married, its just when he can afford my Disney sized ring Wink

I dont think theres anything wrong with being assertive and non traditional, but to want a bit of old fashioned stuff thrown in the mix- whats the harm?

Merryoldgoat · 22/05/2018 01:42

I agree with you but I grew up with a mother in a relationship like that and she was unhappy as fuck with the way things were.

It’s the same as people claiming not to want to use birth control because of their religion but living together and having sex outside of marriage.

LePamplemoussse · 22/05/2018 01:43

YANBU. It’s because they have very low standards. If he really wanted to marry them, he’d have asked them. No one with very high self esteem would accept marriage being dangled like a carrot and have kids anyway.

DuchyDuke · 22/05/2018 01:49

Yanbu. A lot of men and women live in denial in these kinds of relationships - if you aren’t good enough to marry, you should leave not stick around until you have kids and no financial security!

BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil · 22/05/2018 01:51

Low standards? Seriously?

How about being a couple who have children together and then decide to formalise the relationship legally through marriage? Thats not low standards, thats a mutual recognition of the family unit through law.

I apologise if Ive misinterpreted your post LePamplemoussse but it sounds like 1950s 'why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free' talk.

SalemBlackCat · 22/05/2018 03:43

I don't understand. Why wouldn't they have their father's surname? Even if you are defacto and no married, most kids go by the father's surname, even today. Only time the kid has the mother's name is if the father is a deadbeat with a restraining order against him and the mother didn't want the kids to have his name. Other than that, most couples I know that aren't married but have kids all have the father's name.

FluffyMcCloud · 22/05/2018 03:50

Patriarchy. Women are socialised into thinking they have to be desirable to men and the ultimate goal is to be desirable enough to be marriage material and they need the big showy proposal to prove they made it. Marriage is still a very unbalanced societal institution where women get to be picked by men as being worthy and need that validation from a proposal.
I don’t really get why unmarried mums give their kids the dads surname either - unless there are plans to marry in the future and so all change to the same surname. If neither party ever want to marry then mums surname should be default in my opinion as statistically she is the one most likely to stick around...

TheDowagerCuntess · 22/05/2018 03:55

I suspect a lot of women think that if they get pregnant and have DC, their partner will pop the question. And then are surprised when he doesn't.

And then they don't want to ask - they want him to want to marry them. But he doesn't.

spatchcock · 22/05/2018 04:25

"I don't understand. Why wouldn't they have their father's surname? Even if you are defacto and no married, most kids go by the father's surname, even today."

Do you really not understand? Why shouldn't the children have the mother's name? It's hardly crazy in this day and age. What's crazy is just blindly accepting how it's always been. Mine have my name, btw.

emmyrose2000 · 22/05/2018 04:38

My cousin has been with her partner for about 13-14 years, since her late teens. They have bought a house and have four children together, each one planned. I've no idea why they haven't got married. It's not my business, but I do think it's strange, especially as they went to the efforts of consciously planning their children.

NewYearNewMe18 · 22/05/2018 04:48

"Children are the commitment, you don't need a bit of paper" - that line always amuses me no end. This forum is full of women with stories to tell, being left holding the proverbial baby, with no recourse to any assets acquired in the relationship.

Even at my advanced years where I have friends who have been together for the thick end of 40 years, are getting to that age where pensions and wills are a talking point. With no exception, each couple has been told by their solicitor to get married to avoid complications.

And if it's 'just a bit of paper', would any of the LGBT community like to explain to readers why they fought so hard for equality in this matter?

ShamelesslyPlacemarking · 22/05/2018 04:55

You seem outraged.

I'd be more outraged to be living in a country that insists on couples getting married if they want financial protection. Plenty of countries have relationship property protections that kick in after just a few years of a de facto relationship and give similar if not identical protections to marriage.

L0UISA · 22/05/2018 04:59

Patriarchy. Women are socialised into thinking they have to be desirable to men and the ultimate goal is to be desirable enough to be marriage material and they need the big showy proposal to prove they made it. Marriage is still a very unbalanced societal institution where women get to be picked by men as being worthy and need that validation from a proposal

This.

Ginandplatonic · 22/05/2018 05:00

Just came on to say the same as ShamelesslyPlacemarking - instead of criticising women for their choices why aren't you all outraged about the legal position in the UK which gives so few rights to unmarried cohabiting couples? In Australia for example they have essentially the same rights after a certain amount of time or after children. I wonder this every time one of these threads comes up (ie frequently).

Iwasjustabouttosaythat · 22/05/2018 05:02

Emmy, it’s fine if people don’t want to get married. That’s not what’s being discussed here. A lot of feminists see marriage as sexist for various reasons. I am one of them. I have been with my partner for 20 years and we have 3 children. I have never wanted to get married and never will. Happily I live in a country where I get the same rights as married women due to my defacto status. Obviously others just trust their partner enough to build a life with them without the paperwork. I would too.

Bananas, you are engaged. You have agreed to get married and he’s just saving for the ring. Again, not what’s actually being discussed.

I agree that women who flail about crying that their partner won’t surprise them with a romantic proposal after 5 kids are ridiculous. That boat has sailed. If you want the proposal either make that clear to your partner and agree terms (like Bananas) or don’t have children with someone who won’t discuss marriage with you. Why would anyone have children with someone they weren’t 100% sure of? If that means marriage then do that first.

I’m guessing most of these pregnancies must have been surprises, because it’s pretty ridiculous to have kids with someone who doesn’t want to make sure you’re happy.

NewYearNewMe18 · 22/05/2018 05:08

Patriarchy. Women are socialised into thinking they have to be desirable to men and the ultimate goal is to be desirable enough to be marriage material and they need the big showy proposal to prove they made it. Marriage is still a very unbalanced societal institution where women get to be picked by men as being worthy and need that validation from a proposal

You have the choice whether to or not. It's a bit like a car, why would you expect the same legal protection if you cant be bothered to get it insured? If the wheel falls off, then you cant expect someone else to pick up the cost. Marriage is a legal contract with mutual obligations, if you choose to not partake in that contract, then that's down to you and your life choices.

Emma198 · 22/05/2018 05:08

🙄🙄😒

BadLad · 22/05/2018 05:11

Personally I'd be outraged to live in a country where I didn't have the option of living as a couple but without sharing finances, if I wanted to. The system in the UK seems much better to me - people can commit to each other by getting married, or they can live together without going as far as that.

NewYearNewMe18 · 22/05/2018 05:14

Very good point badlad - we have choice. Many countries don't.

L0UISA · 22/05/2018 05:18

I agree with badlad. People should be free to live together without commitment if that’s what they want. It shouldn’t be imposed on them by law.

And I also agree with the OP. Women take a huge financial risk if they decide to take maternity leave and go part time with a man who doesn’t want to make make any financial or legal commitment.

Most of these women also do a greater share of the housework , childcare and wife work ( for nothing ) while he continues to earn a full time wage, build his career, savings and pension. While she washes his pants and watches his kid for free.

So many men like to keep their options open and their wallet tightly closed.