Grandparents having the right to have time with grandchildren

[yike]

AIBU to think this needs to be thought through very carefully and the appropriate safeguards put in place before it goes ahead? I'm all for children maintaining relationships with family (and friends) when parents' relationships break down (particularly so, as it could be an important constant for them), but equally where there has been bad blood there is a real risk as when parents themselves use the kids as pawns in their arguments that grandparents could do the same. Is the idea that this would just apply after a divorce - what about at other times when families are NC? Could grandparents just demand to see grandchildren against the wishes of both parents? What if said GP have a history of manipulation, posting photos of the children on social media without parents' consent, or other questionable behaviour?

Grandparents should work through their own child to get access.
If their child doesn't have access, then they need to address that first - and their own access will automatically follow.

Gottaget - how do you prove someone is a good grandparent? Or a bad one? It's impossible when abuse happened years ago, is unrecorded and not provable. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

“If their child doesn't have access, then they need to address that first”

Blimey, really? Not sure that’s how it should go. My mother was not responsible for some of the seriously crap decisions I made in my life.

So, writ large, how far with these rights extend ? Could GPs prevent children being taken to live in another country with a non-UK parent ?

I have to say, the more you blue-sky the implications, the more it feels like children are being slowly commoditized ...

It's awful that some of you would deny good grandparents to be allowed to try to get access because there are some bad grandparents.
Just watched the couple on This Morning programme and its sad.

My mother was not responsible for some of the seriously crap decisions I made in my life.

But neither is the parent of your grandchild. Why the hell should they be made responsible for providing access to the other parent's family? Rather than address the problems in your own family, you want to go to court and inflict all sorts of crap on someone else?

I feel very sad for loving grandparents who find themselves denied access to their much loved grandchildren because of a bitter divorce between their son/daughter and partner.

Obviously there's two sides to many of these situations and reading through some of the posts here it is clear that some grandparents are abusive or unkind and do not deserve to see their grandchildren.

But they must, surely, be the tiny minority. The vast majority of grandfathers and grandmothers love their grandchildren, would walk on hot coals for them, and are a hugely beneficial part of those children's lives.

Those grandparents need some kind of rights and protection by law, should they find themselves unfairly in a position where they are being denied access to their grandchildren.

I do. It's not always easy to prove abuse, especially subtle emotional abuse

^ This. A relate counsillor said what GP said to dc could^ be seen as emotionally damaging - it was one comment but very symbolic of the way mil operates. Its not a great environment to be in for any length of time but every now and then is fine, and everyone is on best behaviour.

How would we get this over in a court? We would have to talk to counsellor and ask if they would be happy to speak in court??

Grandparents should work through their own child to get access

In case where couples are married, the in laws treat their own child like a massive failure and disappointment, caused that child massive destructive self esteem issues. So that child sees his parents very rarely and then he is treated with disdain by his DM, what access should GP have with their gc!

It's awful that you Gottagetmoving would allow a lot of abusive grandparents to get access because there are a few good grandparents without access.

I don't believe good grandparents are regularly denied access, nor do I believe that every grandparent who says that they are good is telling the truth.

I start from the position that, all other things being equal, children have the right to access to anyone they love and who loves them. As I said, if my dp left me, I would not expect his mother to try and sort out his behaviour. But I would want her to carry on seeing our children because they adore her and she is important to them, even though she and I don’t much like each other. Why should children miss out even more because their dad’s been a git?

If grandparents don't have access there is a reason. Sort that reason out. Don't use legal means to force your ex-Dil or ex-Sil to provide access that you have not been able to organise through your own child.

I can see both sides of the argument and know of people who really should never have been parents let alone be grandparents and poison yet another generation.
However I have friends who helped their son and DIL financially while the GC's were young and at this time they saw the grandchildren perhaps 3 or 4 times a year. When Grandad retired the grandparents said to son and Dil "we cannot afford to continue this financial support, we now do not have sufficient income" the response was that unless they continued to send funds they would not allow them to see the grandchildren!
After a few months of the funds ceasing the GP's received a solicitors letter saying they could never contact the parents or the grandchildren again and if they did the police would be contacted.
It is all very sad these (the GP's) are genuinely nice folks and are both heartbroken.
However I can't see that the gc's will benefit from seeing their grandparents until they are adults and are able to form their own opinions without any undue influence from their parents.

“If grandparents don't have access there is a reason. Sort that reason out. Don't use legal means to force your ex-Dil or ex-Sil to provide access that you have not been able to organise through your own child.”

It is entirely possible that your own child is a complete arsehole. Does that mean that his/her children should lose out on their grandparents? I can’t see how a court process would work, though. But it’s not going to happen so.....

MillicentF - I agree if you want to do that, it is fine. And that's how it works for many people.
But if you don't, that should be your choice. You should not have contact with ex-relatives forced on you. It should be managed through your ex-DH.
Similarly, if there has been abuse or any other issue, you should be free to cut the GPs out. And that should be the parents' choice, not a courts.

I heard this on the news the same day I received judgment for my contested CAO and it sent chills down my spine.

MIL, SIL and ex made all sorts of allegations, in the hope that the district judge would grant ex full residency. Thankfully, they failed.

I can’t begin to imagine how painful it is to not have your grandchildren in your life. But I’m not convinced this is the answer.

I agree upside.

I would LOVE my pils to have treated my dc normally but I feel mil has transferred her dysfunction onto them and as usual its all about her.

It was on This Morning, some guy saying he doesn't see his son or grandchild. The son declined to come on Id love to know his side.

there was something recently about elon musk cutting out his loving father then it transpired actually the dad had married his adoptive daughter or something - or something like that ....nothing is ever straight forward.

It is entirely possible that your own child is a complete arsehole. Does that mean that his/her children should lose out on their grandparents?
Sadly, yes it does. And that is the right thing.
GPs are not parents, do not have rights relating to grandchildren and should not expect to have them.

“Sadly, yes it does. And that is the right thing”
Why?

“GPs are not parents, do not have rights relating to grandchildren and should not expect to have them.”
I agree. But children have the right to see anyone who they love and who love them..

My mother sees ds and no doubt the baby I'm currently carrying (which I apparently should have aborted due to the inconvenience of my being pregnant when my df's cancer came back & during his subsequent hospital stay/death even though it didn't stop me from organizing everything) because she's so far a better grandmother than mother.

However the second she starts repeating any of the patterns of my childhood, the emotional abuse, the casual cruelty... that access will stop. I will not have my children subjected to the constant belittling, bitching and whining which turned me into an adult with zero self esteem. Who still has to a fight a constant battle in their head to believe that they are actually worth something.

On the surface though, she comes across as lovely. Respected, does a ton of charity work, has friends and because she's an expert manipulator, I've no idea how I'd be believed if we had to go to court. She's great at crying on demand and turning herself into a victim at the slightest thing.

It is entirely possible that your own child is a complete arsehole

and what is the definition of one! Surely each persons perception changes?

My pils would say I am - and access to GC is denied or lowered through me.
That she only sees her own son through me. The truth is DH had zero relationship with them when I met him, they have glossed over that.
DH makes zero effort to see them - or to arrange for dc to see them. But its never been enough for my pils. They have different expectations. I expect they think I'm much worse than an arsehole but the truth is very different. They have treated me like dirt and yet its been me in the past stupidly interfering when I should have literally left dh relations with them well alone.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils

Sounds like Mil, the crying, manipulating etc, charity.

Did she whine at you and belittle you? Mil has always done this to dh and he has low self esteem.

I think ultimately it is completely unmanageable in realistic terms.
I have sympathy for the good grandparents that don't get to see their grandkids due to divorce etc but I'm not sure courts etc are really going to work.
My dh mother loves to go on Facebook etc and go on about her grandchild, her kids etc. She very much paints herself as mother and grandmother of the year but in reality it is nothing like this. In the the 3 years since her gd has been alive she has visited her 3 times. She takes pictures and then spends the next 6 months periodically uploading them to fb even after being asked not to.
She was not a good mother to my dh, no abuse as such but she is manipulative and nasty at times. She lied to him for years about who his father was, she would purposefully let his siblings have treats and deny him them, she would take money off him at birthdays etc and spend it on herself. None of this can be proven of course but has led to a very distant relationship between her and her son. It would fill me with dread if she ever tried to get any kind of access to my kids.
I don't like the idea of anyone's rights in regards to children other than the rights of the child themselves.

As a gran myself I see spending time with my grandchildren as indeed with my children and dils/sips a pleasure and a privalage.

God forbid If my sons marriages broke down I would loose contact with my grandchildren as I have made my own strong loving relationships with my dils.

I honestly believe that if parents really and truly do not want their own parents or parents in law to see their grandchildren it’s got to be for totally sensible reasons.

If grandparents suspect abuse or neglect they can ask SS to intervene but that’s different.

pleasure and a privalage

It is a privilege some GP come at it as a right - and the right to behave and do as they like.

You have made strong relationships with your dils, so its highly unlikely you would loose contact why would you? If your son turned into a wife beater and you took his side then your dil may understandably not trust you anymore.
She may not feel its best for the dc to see you either. But in a normal situation good relations are key.

“Sadly, yes it does. And that is the right thing”
Why?

Because the alternate is far worse - going to court, the impact of those costs on families who can't afford it, the possibility the child might have to testify, the potential that abusive grandparents do get access, the negative impact of that kind of person on a child.

I've been NC with my dad for 10 years - I put up with his shit for years but when he turned it on the kids I stopped contact instantly. Easiest decision I have ever made. I know what is best for my DC. I have 2 happy, confident fab children - something I was never able to be with him in my life. The thought that he could have just waved a cheque book around and got access to them is frankly just terrifying.