should I shave?

[TotHappy]

This has been niggling at me for a while.

I'm 31. Been with dh nearly 14 years. My shaving routine used to be:
Underarms - most days, might get a bit stubbly if I left it for a few. Probably take care to shave them before baring them to swim/sunbathe.
Legs - only really bothered for a night out, so maybe shaved once a month. More in summer, but def not every day - maybe for an 'event' or a beach day. An event might include a sexy night in, but they certainly weren't smooth at all times and I didn't care.
Vag - never. Or maybe once or twice as an experiment, never liked it, hate the feeling, find it uncomfortable plus too much faff.

Then when I got pregnant (daughter is nearly 2 now), stopped shaving pretty much everything. Initially, morning sickness and generally not leaving house, later size of bump. Sexy times were non existent anyway as dh stopped sexual activity once I was pregnant - which I was very upset about.
Shaving has never resumed post partum - I will still occasionally do it for a night out/special event but not always, and of course nights out are a lot rarer now with DD. My solitary baths when I could quickly do my underarms are long gone, DD baths with me so no razors in the bath, and when I do get the odd solitary bath I cba with how long it would take as underarms now a good inch long.
I just don't care any more, even as much as I used to, about what people think. If I go swimming or to the beach, I dont feel the need to de-hair first. I think this is a lot to do with giving birth in front of five strangers - personal things somehow seem a lot less personal!

My issue is dh has brought up me not shaving a few times and I feel very uncomfortable about him doing that. After an argument once he said, as part of a rang about how I dont care, 'you dont even shave your legs anymore', quickly followed up by 'not that that's important, but it just shows that you dont care', to which I was as I was never in the permanently-hairless-legs crew, ever, and in any case the reason I had reduced the number of leg shaves was because I had reduced the numbers of nights out, end of!

The other day, he was giving me a foot massage and commented 'whoa, how hairy are your legs?!' I think I responded with a and a 'quite hairy', and he followed up with 'what about your armpits? Have you shaved those lately?' Or similar.

He has also said several times in the past that he prefers a shaven vag. I've said I dont like the feel of it so dont plan to dp that regularly, but have on the very odd occasion got a bikini wax/Californian wax. Last time he didn't even notice as he wasn't up for sex for the whole 6 weeks it was evident, so that was a waste!

I feel really quite miffed that he thinks I should shave because he prefers it. I suppose I have two questions:
A) AIBU to manage my body hair in any way I want without reference to him and
B) what do most people here do? I know most of my friends do shave with some regularity. I know my mum never did. So possibly a generational thing, but as I grew up with my mum as a role model, I feel totally comfortable either way. I feel very uncomfortable with the comments I've sometimes seen on social media about not shaving being 'dirty' or 'unhygienic'.

Thoughts??

I love the fact that some of the posters here are coming from the place that says “it doesn’t matter whether you are ‘attractive’ or not”. I would love it if we could get beyond judging ourselves, other women, and occasionally men, by “attractiveness” so much. It would be great if we spent more time on fun, kindness, courage, gentleness etc etc. I am so so happy to be in a marriage where my husband could not care less whether I shave or not. Because he doesn’t find me “attractive” because of my hair or absence of it.

Clean is helpful I agree!

very informative
and it seems to me that hair removal has always been done, same as hairstyles it has had it's fashions and fads but it didn't happen suddenly because of porn, porn stars merely adpopted a fashion that was already there.

Do you genuinely think there is no societal pressure on women to conform? Or that people saying they think pubic hair is gross and unhygienic doesn’t sound judgemental?

No I don't think there is a societal pressure to conform. No one says anything to uou if your legs are hairy. And society is the people you chose to work and socialise with. Dorchester not withstanding.

And as for judgemental, sure it's judgemental. As are the whole thongs are obscene thread. People are judgemental. That's life. You need to get over it and do your own thing.

So why are there threads on here with women feeling embarrassed and ashamed at the thought of the midwife seeing them with hair?

You would have to ask them that. Some folks are too anxious even to answer their front door. That's about them more than the midwife or whatever, who I am sure has seen every form of Bush there is

On one side; it's your body and you can do with it whatever you please.

On t'other side; I can see his point.

Because people - and especially women - are judgemental.

People want to be free to judge away and feel entitled to do so - but are not so comfortable on the other side of that when they in turn are judged. Perhaps those women (or some of them) feeling awkward about their hairy legs being seen by a health professional, are one and the same as the women saying that people in thong bikinis are obscene.

We're by and large a sex that attacks each other; we can't get away with doing that physically so we lash out and are spiteful.

No one said porn invented pubic hair removal. What it has done, is normalise it to the extent that it is now the expectation that a woman will be hairless. A woman cannot even relax in her own home without being pulled up on the hair on her legs, as in the OP's case. There was a thread on here about teenage boys discussing finding pubic hair on a girl, being disgusted and telling her to remove it. Being in public with body hair as a woman has become "a statement" when it is, in fact, our natural state. I have a few friends who have confessed their boyfriends will refuse sex unless they have had a brazilian. Look how many women on this thread equate body hair with being dirty (despite several posters pointing out the same is not thought of men and you can actually google instances of women contracting serious infections from waxing - I've never heard of anyone falling seriously ill from having pubic hair). Women are free to do as they please with their body hair and I fully support that. What I take issue with is women being forced into hair removal because of this pressure on them to be "clean" and "feminine" and "to make them attractive to men". Women should not have to justify having body hair. It should not be such a huge issue that sex is taken off the table or relationships are ended over it. Men should be able to see and touch women's body hair without gagging or complaining. There IS pressure and it has gone way too far.

"No one said porn invented pubic hair removal".

No. But it did drive the headlong change from niche to normal in the 1970s/80s.

Who gives a shit, people have been removing body hair since time began, and if it's become more fashionable it's because we like it. As plenty of women have testified on here.

If you don't want to remove it don't. Really the folks scared someone will judge them really need to get a grip. Keep it remove it, just do what you please and stop living your life in the fear that some random might judge you. They are probably judging you any way, about your clothes, your hair, your make up, even your friggen choice of swimwear.

Honestly it is no way to live. Do what you want. If you don't want to shave don't get involved with a man who wants you to and then spend your days doing something you don't want. As again witnessed by this thread plentyof blokes don't give a shiny shit.

Societal pressure my arse. Society is the people you surround yourself with. Make better choices if they don't accept you.

Yeah, I'm not convinced that societal pressure just comes from those you choose to surround yourself with. Or that you can step free from any social condition easily by changing your social group.

We're social creatures, what is socially acceptable is something that is all around us from birth, before we're even aware of it. Not just from family and friends, but from every interaction with society. I think it's great, @Bluntness100, that you're able to reject any pressure and do exactly what you want. Not everyone is so fortunate, and simply exhorting them to just instantly change is unrealistic.

What's the answer then, AssassinatedBeauty? I don't think it's possible to compel people to accept various states. People judge and they have their idiosyncratic likes and dislikes. That's human nature.

For body hair it's surely going to be the same as people preferring blondes/brunettes whilst eschewing people with red or grey hair. People preferring certain body types whist rejecting others.

As much as it's laudable to say 'don't judge a book by its cover', people have their inherent likes/dislikes and whilst those might not be reasonable, they are there.

Perhaps, going back to body hair - if a woman keeps her hair and meets somebody that doesn't mind it or even has a preference for it, then she's validated and confident. The same can be said for women who remove their hair. If however the partner expresses a preference for the opposite and cannot/will not see past it, then there's nothing to be done about changing their mindset, only walking away from them.

It's all very well saying that we must educate young adults/children even, demonstrating what is normal - but that doesn't mean it will lead to acceptance of hair retained or hair removed; personal preference may well prevail and prejudice exists in all forms.

Well, people not saying that it's more hygienic and cleaner would help a lot.

Say you find it sexy. Nothing wrong with women finding things sexy. Say you like the feel in clothes. But stop suggesting that it's an essential part of "personal grooming" like cleaning your teeth. It isn't, And stop denying that the current trend is fuelled by porn.

Exactly millicent. I completely agree with you.

Yes it's the implication from a few on this thread that it's basic self care like washing or even wiping your arse that's the most ridiculous.

I agree with @MillicentF's last post, @LyingWitchInTheWardrobe. I wouldn't dream of trying to compel any one to do anything.

You talk about people preferring blondes and rejecting red heads. But usually they don't feel free to explain how disgusting they find red hair, or how they find it unhygienic and unfeminine, or lazy not to dye it an acceptable colour all the time.

I also think it's worth considering the general attitude to women and body hair, seen as a feminist issue. I think it's wilfully blinkered to insist that there is no pressure or expectation from men towards women, or that this has no effect on women who are all exercising a completely free choice. I would never assume that any individual woman feels pressure, whether consciously or subconsciously, to remove body hair. But I might ask her if it's something she's ever thought about.

No, Millicent, you don't get to dictate that. It's an essential part of my grooming, for me, nobody else. It's as much routine as cleaning my teeth, washing my hair, doing my nails. People who don't do those things are just people who don't do those things - no more, no less.

Stop telling other women what to do and say about themselves. If they say something about other people then yes, interject, but if they're talking about themselves then it's not for you or anybody else to decree that they mustn't.

TotHappy, I've been supportive of you on this thread. I don't think you started it with a view to getting opinions on whether you should shave; you're fairly adamant that you'll do what you like. I think you've been a bit disingenuous about your motives but whether it's your thread or not, you don't get to dictate what other women say and feel about themselves either.

Nobody cares what you do or don't do, it's your personal choice and I don't know what else there is to say about it.

She's not telling you it isn't an essential part of your personal routine. It's that it isn't by default an essential part of everyone's routine, like teeth brushing and washing should be.

And arse wiping, Assassinated, don’t forget the arse wiping.

I keep my pits fairly trimmed, rarely shave my legs, never would dream of shaving my vag. I detest the trend for bare chicken skin style vaginas and the thought of ingrowing hairs down there? Just no. I’d probably think a lot less of my husband if he claimed to have a problem with a female body in its natural state. If he wants to have sex with an adult female he should learn to deal with body hair. Don’t do something to your body you don’t like!

Ok then Assassinated, take body types. That is what HelenaDove was alluding to earlier. People most definitely take a prejudiced view there, attributing all kinds of insulting pronouncements on people (mostly women) who are deemed to deviate from 'the norm'.

People not only do reject 'red heads' they are disparaging about them. I'm surprised you haven't seen the threads about this topic.

I think there is pressure from some men on some women. It's clear from this thread that that's not a general position. My husband wouldn't care if I did or didn't remove my pubic hair. I don't do it for him, I do it for me. I don't watch porn, have no interest in it but, if my removing my pubic hair matches in with that expectation then, so what? I'm past caring about what random people think of my grooming habits; I make no judgements of other people and have no expectations of them.

I'll be teaching my children that their bodies, as they are, are beautiful, sophisticated marvels and there is no need to adjust them for other people. I will expect them to afford that same respect to other people also.

I think the constant leaping on body hair is doing feminism a disservice because there is no middle ground. Anybody who removes their pubic hair is somehow seen to be 'letting the side down' and actually, that's not ok in my book but, if I'm pushed to take 'sides' then I'll stop taking an interest in feminism altogether because this isn't worth it in my opinion.

I do think women who say they shave purely for themselves and not for societal pressure are lying to themselves though. Shaving is a faffy, annoying time consuming activity much like putting on makeup. If there was no pressure to do it I definitely wouldn’t. Can anyone honestly say if no other woman on the planet did these things and men didn’t expect them too they do it?

I would. I hate hair.

@LyingWitchintheWardrobe, perhaps I wasn't clear - I did start the thread for opinions on whether or not I should shave, given all the details such as my routine having changed, my husband's known preference etc. I wasn't looking or opinions on whether or not I, as a woman, should shave, single or otherwise. I'm still fairly conflicted about whether my husband's being reasonable or not on this so I suppose yes, I'll do what I like as in feel my way, try doing a bit more, see his reaction to it and try to decipher whether he really was just (clumsily) pointing out his preferences or trying to insist. Because if he's trying to insist, I don't feel comfortable with giving in to that. And that's precisely because I agree with you that it should be a woman's choice, about her own body.
I was genuinely taken aback by more than one poster (not you) suggesting that not shaving is disgusting and there is 'no excuse' for not doing it. Because like you, I dont feel that I need an excuse to handle my own hair any way I like!

This self-care/grooming thing is just semantics, isn't it? Showering every day/every week - numerous threads about that. Anything less than 2 or 3 times a day is abhorrent to some posters.

It's the same with pubic hair removal, I really don't see the difference.

If you're fine with it being my routine - and I'm fine with anybody else having a different routine - and most women don't really care what other people do, what is the nub of it? That some women don't affix 'for me' at the end of a sentence that begins 'pubic hair feels dirty...'?

Why would an adult care? Why does it matter what other people think about pubic hair given the far more insulting judgements that are bandied around on this board? If posters are rude then tell them so. Like with any other thread.

From what I've seen on the myriad threads on this very topic, the non-hair removers are very happy with their choices, they will not allow men to dictate to them and they don't care what anybody thinks. Kudos to them, we should all be like that I think.