AIBU to ask you to explain cultural appropriation and why it is bad to me

[ConfusedWife1234]

So I am a white woman of mixed European ancestry and I think most of the things I typically wear are European or US American in origin, apart from polo Shirts and khakis (which I learned are Indian in origin, but I did not even know this until recently).

So I am not sure what cultural appropriation is. Is it cultural appropriation:

-If a rich person dresses down
-If a poor person dresses like a billionaire
-If a civilian wears clothes of military origin
-If a white European dresses like a white American
-If a white European dresses like a Afroamerican
-If a young person attends a re-enactment group and dresses up for a historical event that happened before he or she was born

Or is is just cultural appropriation if a person from another culture chooses to dress in a dress worn for special occasion... like this girl who wore a Chinese wedding dress for her prom.

Also why is cultural appropriation bad. Not asking to be snarky here. Really interested to learn.

Is it that the dress is seen as sacred, like maybe a Christian would be offended if someone wore a cross as part of his dress... or is it the idea that a certain style of dress must be earned.

It’s a form of racism.

Cultural sharing and merging and integration of ideas and customs has always happened. Queen Victoria’s husband brought with him the custom of fir trees brought inside and decorated for Xmas and 150 years on its an English custom and most people don’t know the German origin.

But when there is a power imbalance and/or the food, clothing, action or event has specific meaning care needs to be taken when deciding whether wearing that item, or dressing up as that character, or holding an event.

If a person from a culture invites you to share - all good. This includes eating at restaurants, wearing a sari to a wedding when the invitation came with a link to places to purchase and attending a ceremony as an invited guest.

But cultures are not costumes to be put on and taken off and it is offensive to dress up as an oppressed cultural group.

And ceremonies and religious festivals have meaning and it is offensive to decide that just because you saw a show about it or read about it you should create your own version using the same name but without the same meanings.

And (this is the hardest usually for Europeans to understand) if something is purporting to be representative of a culture, people or community then it should absolutely be made with contributions from people belonging to that group and a percentage of the monies should go to that community.

For an (local to me in Australia) example: don’t buy ‘aboriginal’ artwork that is made in China and which was created without input from an actual indigenous artist. This is doubly offensive because no money goes back to impoverished indigenous communities from the sale of such ‘art’ nor does an actual Artist earn a living from her work.

If a person from a culture invites you to share - all good. This includes eating at restaurants

So eating at an "ethnic" restaurant is racism if not invited to share in it by a person from that culture?

Think you'll find you've disappeared into the rabbit hole on that one pet.

I am white and love my kaftans. Is that bad?

I think if there is some element of "fancy dress" going into it it's cultural appropriation.

Those famous photographs of young white girls at festivals in skimpy outfits and big Native American headdresses are offensive, because it's playing sexy dress-up with a culture that has had genocide visited upon it by the invading whites.

Most other things are not cultural appropriation. Wearing a sari / listening to German opera, fine.

I think people need to be careful when they adopt aspects of a culture that suffers discrimination, such as black culture.

Native American headdresses are also worn only by those who have gained a lot of respect within their tribes, so it's doubly offensive to use them as a fashion accessory.

Weirdly the people who talk about cultural appropriation are rarely the least privileged. Why is that?

The urgency to take and create offence is ridiculous and ruining society. The same people who bleat about cultural appropriation also whine about cultural relativism the odious notion that people with brown skin deserve less human rights because culture and are pro trans (the ultimate cultural appropriation.

Stop it, just stop it now.

Not weird at all. Privileged people are precisely the ones who ought to be aware of it.

There are times when it is acceptable to dress in the style of a culture not your own, and times when it is not. It's well documented that many Native Americans find it offensive when non-Natives wear war bonnets as fashion accessories, but there are other beautiful items from the culture that are more acceptable to share.

The urgency to take and create offence is ridiculous and ruining society.

I think it's other things doing that.

I think people need to be careful when they adopt aspects of a culture that suffers discrimination, such as black culture

which black culture? Its not really ok to lump them altogether as if all black people are the same.

Cultural appropriation is in a few limiting cases a justified thing, but as with an term it has become abused and now in some instances it is diametrically opposed to actual multicultarism.

It's another stick in which to keep people in certain boxes, whilst pretending to be inclusive

OhTheRoses However the book is appropriate as a way in to discussing The Holocaust, I have used this and The Diary of Anne Frank for age appropriate lessons.

On the rest of 'cultural appropriation;" it steps in when common sense steps out. Chinese Elvis is funny, people dressing as Nazis is not because there are victims still alive. I'd be more interested in getting people to read and study history instead of having knee jerk reactions to clothing and hairstyles. Obviously the likes of Gollywogs are outdated and were ORIGINALLY intended to sustain stereotypes and status quo but adopting fashion from other culture... Seriously what on earth is wrong with people I know every generation needs a case but I find most cultural appropriation accusations complete, redundant bolloxx. Can I say bollox? Am I CA from males? See where does it end?

I find the sari example a good example of how mad this is

My mum is from India and always wears a sari.

I'm English born and bred. I have no interest in India. The sari means nothing to me other than worrying mum will trip over as she's so unsteady the days.

But let me guess, the CA believes would be fine with me wearing one?

I mean, I think anyone should be able to wear one but the fact a poster has said "I wouldn't because it's CA" demonstrates my issue.

Is a sari a symbol of oppression btw?

Posie, your summary is great btw

Hmm. It's an interesting thing.
I'm white. I work in a local authority that isn't diverse but live in one that is diverse. I would love to wear a saree at home and to work just because I think they're beautiful. I have never done this for fear of giving offense. I probably never will because of all the inevitable questions. I don't want to virtue signal. I don't want to be Indian. I just love sarees as beautiful clothes. Is that cultural appropriation? Or is it just being greedy for beautiful things?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/04/american-woman-qipao-china-cultural-appropriation-minorities-usa-dress?CMP=fb_gu

It's complete nonsense invented by middle class white people and yet another manifestation of the offended-at-all costs, everyone's a victim, joyless attitude that's taking over society.

Thankfully, I think we're past the peak of this kind of rubbish.

I think if there is some element of "fancy dress" going into it it's cultural appropriation

This is exactly the point I was making, when I gave the example of the sari - which people seem incapable of or unwilling to grasp. I (personally) did not choose to wear a sari to the two Indian weddings Ive attended. To me it would have felt like 'fancy dress' I was quite happy wearing wedding outfits that I would normally wear, as did many other people.

Someone upthread posted that a list was provided at a wedding they'd attended so women could go to a local sari shop to buy one. Well to my mind if that was a mandatory requirement, that's no different to guests being told they all have to buy special black-and-white or red outfits. Let's face it, they'd then be stuck with a sari they were unlikely to ever wear again!

I don't think the term cultural appropriate was even "invented" when I attending the Indian wedding, but then again neither had dressing up as cowboys and Indians or having cornrows, someone has just decided it's offensive and given it a snazzy name.

This is exactly the point I was making, when I gave the example of the sari - which people seem incapable of or unwilling to grasp.

It is not what you said at all. Let me remind you of what you said:

I've been to traditional Indian weddings before and I wouldn't dream of turning up in a sari. It makes me feel embarrassed just thinking about it. That seems to be the kind of scenario that gives rise to accusations of 'cultural appropriation' (justifiably so, IMO) - it's the unthinking, insensitive nature of people who can't be bothered to consider how their actions might affect other people's sensibilities. They seems to live in their own little bubble, totally clueless about anything other than me, me, me.

So you used the example of a non-Asian person wearing a sari to a wedding. Then you said that this is an example of something that gives rise to cries of cultural appropriation. Then you said that this was 'justifiable'. Then you described people who do this as 'unthinking, insensitive', obsessed with themselves and, well, you can read it back.

In short, you tried to use saris-at-weddings as an example for your misguided virtue signalling over cultural appropriation, and the example has since been utterly torn asunder.

None of this matters, but this is the point where you say, "Ok, I stand corrected on that one. Saris at weddings are ok." But instead you're trying to claim that this is not what you said, and that the rest of us are just too thick to understand.

And that is irritating. You said it. If you now retract it, fine, say so, nobody will care. But to say that the problem is actually just that everyone else is stupid? That's obnoxious.

I don't think the term cultural appropriate was even "invented" when I attending the Indian wedding

Plenty of awful things don't get names until society realises that they need them.

Can I say bollox? Am I CA from males? See where does it end?

What a daft example. I have never heard anyone, however loopy, claim this.

The Native American Headdress is a perfect example of why the rest of it is bullshit. If a garment carries importance or weight of a spiritual or religious nature then that would be offensive if anyone not deserving of it wore it irrespective of cultural compass. I don't think it's the same, otherwise none of us would wear moccasins which are also Native American aren't they?

This is the same comparison as a turban and a sari, surely? One is religious observance/pillar and the other is clothing.

The Native American Headdress is a perfect example of why the rest of it is bullshit. If a garment carries importance or weight of a spiritual or religious nature then that would be offensive if anyone not deserving of it wore it irrespective of cultural compass. I don't think it's the same, otherwise none of us would wear moccasins which are also Native American aren't they?

It's true that anyone wearing a war bonnet without a right to it is being offensive. But it is even more offensive when it comes from someone who has no connection to the culture because, well, that's the appropriation part.

In an alternative universe, let's say that Britain is a former colony of Mexico, taken by force, and Mexicans are still the dominant culture in the country that once was ours. We're ok with this now, but we're aware it happened. Then at music festivals, I keep seeing young Mexican girls in skimpy outfits wearing Victoria Crosses and saying it's ok because they think it's cool and they look pretty. Yes, I am probably going to find that more offensive than if my own teenager did it. (Though I don't think there is much movement in the NA community of people wearing war bonnets when they're not supposed to. Because it's their culture and they know it.)

Mexicans wearing Edward Green shoes probably wouldn't bother me so much.

This is what I mean when I say it is sometimes ok and it sometimes isn't. And it does no harm, if you're unsure, to check with members of that culture first. I know nobody can speak for everyone, but occasionally something happens where enough people from that culture make it clear that this particular item is off limits. The Native American headdress is one such example.

Privileged developed world people appropriating other people’s culture is never a good look. For example, my posh white son playing the didgeridoo-an instrument from a culture practically wiped out by people like him- has always made me feel deeply uncomfortable.

It is yet another meaningless issue that lefties get worked up about.

Wear what you want ....

“It is yet another meaningless issue that lefties get worked up about.”
Yeah, course it is. Lefties with their empathy and good manners and useless crap like that.

I’m just off to borrow the crucifix from the local church to use as a maypole. It’s so amazingly beautiful, and the perfect height,I don’t know much about it’s history, but it’s got such a spiritual vibe around it.......