AIBU to ask you to explain cultural appropriation and why it is bad to me

[ConfusedWife1234]

So I am a white woman of mixed European ancestry and I think most of the things I typically wear are European or US American in origin, apart from polo Shirts and khakis (which I learned are Indian in origin, but I did not even know this until recently).

So I am not sure what cultural appropriation is. Is it cultural appropriation:

-If a rich person dresses down
-If a poor person dresses like a billionaire
-If a civilian wears clothes of military origin
-If a white European dresses like a white American
-If a white European dresses like a Afroamerican
-If a young person attends a re-enactment group and dresses up for a historical event that happened before he or she was born

Or is is just cultural appropriation if a person from another culture chooses to dress in a dress worn for special occasion... like this girl who wore a Chinese wedding dress for her prom.

Also why is cultural appropriation bad. Not asking to be snarky here. Really interested to learn.

Is it that the dress is seen as sacred, like maybe a Christian would be offended if someone wore a cross as part of his dress... or is it the idea that a certain style of dress must be earned.

Too

If a civilian wears clothes of military origin

That’s Stolen Valor isn’t it?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2005

Offensive for a slightly different reason, it’s attempting to get the glory of having risked your life for your country without the inconveniently dangerous part of actually doing so...

Splodgeinc Might I ask you a personal question: Is your dh Hindu? I just wondered if a white women marrying a Hindu will be considered a member of his caste. Eg the yellow bindi means they are farmer caste, the red warrior caste and the white means priest class, doesn’t‘t it? Would a women married to a man from priest caste be considered priest caste or does she need to have a father from that class. How is caste inherited if two people from a different caste marry? I am just curious.

If a rich person dresses down
If a poor person dresses like a billionaire

And those two would be covered under sumptuary law.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

No, wearing clothes of military origin is not stolen valor, trying to pass yourself as a soldier is... but if I wear Bermudas or cargo pants I am wearing clothing of military origin.

Therealposieparker, wow, you look great.

I think it could be described as something from an oppressed culture being appropriated by someone from the oppressive culture

Nailed it

Sorry but that thing about classical music being only properly understood if you have that right ethnic roots is really silly (and I'm a German classical music fan myself). I bet every composer tried to transcend ethnic boundaries and hoped their music reached out to all people (except maybe for Wagner).

Why do you care if it sounds German to me anyway?

ConfusedWife Could you explain what sounds German, if it's strings and a piano (for example) being used to make the music? What added element could the German musician bring to it that say an Icelander or American couldn't bring? Musically speaking that is (I used to play a lot of Bach and Beethoven).

Music is its own language.

Wearing a Sari to an Indian wedding where you are an invited guest is not cultural appropriation. That's pretty much the best example of something which isn't cultural appropriation.

Confusedwife1233 (I can’t make it go bold) I’m not sure. My DH is Hindu but my family in law reject all caste matters. They say it’s one of the reasons they left India and came to the uk because of caste divisions and inequality’s in society there. They now think the UK had a class problem but that it’s more underhand. The do love India very much and are now talking of returning to retire....(which would be sad as we will miss them and I shall have to get my toddler on a plane)

One of the things that always pisses me off about this cultural apppropriation stuff is it’s based so heavily on skin colour and appearance. People decide if you are culturally apporitating if your face matches the hair and clothes. My daughter has light brown skin, brown hair and western facial features. She looks Mediterranean imo, not Indian and not white British which are her two cultures. I hate to think she will be judged wearing the clothes and hairstyles of either of her cultures but their are clearly people out there who will judge if she does. It seems to me that deciding on the basis of someone’s outward appearance if they truly belong to a certain culture is what racism actually is, not people wearing items from other cultures.

Like Kim Kardashian and the corn rows. She is an Armenian heritage women married to an black American man with a mixed race child yet she is all wrong for wearing the hairstyles of her husbands and child’s cultures. And she is being judged by white Americans.

The more I think about this the more it upsets me, are there really people out there who think I should turn round to my husband and say - social justice warriors on the internet say I can’t wear our wedding bracelet anymore because it’s cultural appropriation and therefore racist so you need to take it back! - fuck that! Those people probably think I’m culturally appropriating because I married a man from outside my culture.....

You could apply it to language, should I stop learning Tamil or German or whatever because it’s special to that culture....

I think cultural appropriation is a bit tricky at times but usually if just takes a bit of thinking - so @squashyhat who went and supported blues artists - no of course that’s not appropriating anything as she wasn’t styling herself as a blues artist. If she became a blues artist and then used her whiteness as a platform to create success and failed to acknowledge any of the black blues artists who had gone before her then she’d be in CA (and CF) territory. I think it’s largely to do with white peope Picking and choosing parts of a culture that is usually looked down on and gaining some advantage from it - so when Kylie Jenner wears corn rows she has the advantage of a ‘cool’ image without ever having to have put up with all the racial prejudice that actually goes with Afro hair. Eg. I’m not Jewish but have always been very interested in Judaism - if i started saying L’ chaim as a toast and wanted to smash a glass at my wedding (to a non Jew) and dance the Hora to make myself seem more interesting and as part of my ‘image’ this would be wierd. Similarly if I decided to wear a sari to my wedding just cos I like saris, with no connection whatsoever to India, this would be CA. It’s different I think if you are in a particular country and invited to an event or given something or if there is an actual reason for you to do whatever your doing

@splodgeinc - I really don’t think anyone who’s thought seriously about CA would suggest you give back your bracelet! I also second whoever said mumsnet is not the best place to learn about stuff like this - there are lots of very thoughtful takes on CA available online and it’s not just ‘social justice warriors’. It can be contentious but I think some of the hostility towards it on this thread is because the idea is misrepresented in the mainstream to diminish it, which is unfair I think

@hefzi - I think those are interesting examples, I’m always very suspicious of a white (usually boy) in a keffiyeh as it is so often a band waggoning exercise - I’m so right on cos I support Palestine. But I would think it was context dependent, so at a pro Palestine rally id get it, just generally as a fashion accessory I’d be a bit dubious cos I’d be thinking - why? I guess I’d have to talk to the person to find out if they were a twat or not but I’d assume they were. I was given a keffiyeh at a Kurdish rally in Turkey and as much as I keep it and value it I don’t wear it cos unless I am going to talk about the Kurdish cause to whoever asks me about it - which I don’t really want to do in general chit chat - I don’t see why I should wear it. The belly dancing I’d find it hard to get worked up about but I suppose that could be through lack of thought, I should look it up! Again I suppose it depends how you do it, if it’s roots are acknowledged or not. Also I think most belly dancing I’ve seen in the UK is more respectfully done than what I saw in Turkey!

The more I think about this the more it upsets me, are there really people out there who think I should turn round to my husband and say - social justice warriors on the internet say I can’t wear our wedding bracelet anymore because it’s cultural appropriation and therefore racist

If there are, I'd ignore them. If you're accused of cultural appropriation, you can say, "If that's what you want to call my marriage!"

Thanks, @PinguDance - you've basically summed up my thoughts there! I also struggle to get excited about the dancing - to me, it's no different, as a tradition, to English country dancing/Scottish reels etc which, incidentally, are a very popular niche activity in Japan...

What's wrong with wearing a sari to a traditional Indian wedding? Won't it fit the surroundings more than a cocktail dress?

I was invited to a formal Indian wedding, actually in Mumbai. Couldn't afford to go sadly, however a small list of formal sari stockists in various cities was included with the invite so that their European, non Indian guests knew where to go for attire. It's not the first time I heard of this happening.

As many upthread have said, it's something that happens within the context of a power imbalance. It gets controversial because of the surprise and subsequent outrage that people on the privileged side of that power imbalance feel when it's suggested to them that there may be something that they just shouldn't have. They're not used to it.

It gets controversial because of the surprise and subsequent outrage that people on the privileged side of that power imbalance feel when it's suggested to them that there may be something that they just shouldn't have

Do Europeans have to stop platting their hair (which goes back to ancient Greece) because of a power imbalance in the USA?

What about Hip Hop? If a north of England working class 'electronic' band like Joy Division/New Order gets sample by a middle class black Hip Hop producer in the USA, is that cultural appropriation? Should the European band Krafwerk be assessed for how oppressed their ancestors were in comparison to all the US Hip Hop artists who have sampled them? What if the Kraftwerk keyboard players grandparents were poor agricultural labourers and the US producers grandparents were teachers and doctors? Hip Hop also samples classical music. Why can't we just enjoy a mixture of rhythm and blues, electronic and clasical music without endlessly dissecting it. It's a meeting of cultures and brings artists together. Is it so wrong?
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If you are interested, the Irish jumpers (pullovers) having identifying patterns originated from fishing families on the Aran Islands in the West of Ireland. Generally fishermen couldn't swim as it was thought better to drown quickly. The identifying pattern on the Aran jumpers worn by the men on the boats meant that bodies could be identified and returned to their families.

The Chinese/Western CA thing: there's a long-standing habit in China of wearing traditional Western wedding clothes for photoshoots, despite the fact white is a funeral colour there. As for Ms. Gaum and her qidao, the Chinese think it's great. Respectful acknowledgment of an older and deeper civilization appears to be the consensus.

If you go to a wedding of another culture where you know people well, and wear clothes from that culture then you are fine. However if someone, particularly an OAP, says the item is wrong and you need to take it off immediately then do

Is that a joke? So, if you are invited to say an Indian wedding and wear a sari, its cool. Unless while you're there some auld wan comes over to you and says its wrong, in which you case you disrobe in the middle of the dance floor and walk around in your underwear for the rest of the day.

I'll pass, thanks

@toesinwater - I am interested in that! I’ve heard it also about fair isle patterns - fair isle also an interesting example of a design that has gone worldwide with very little credit ever being given to the largely exploited women who came up with designs and produced so many of the original jumpers, a version of appropriation I think. @alpineflowers I think that’s a good example of trying too hard to make the concept fail - I think the point is Kraftwerk had their dues, are very well known and if they are sampled specifically they have to get credited and money. In a more general way there is an issue with the fact black artists have been ‘ahead of the game’ in pop music for decades but white artists can become very successful making similar music where black artists don’t have that initial leg up. Eminem, for example, was such a successful mainstream hip hop act surely in part because he was white - but he has always acknowledged the influence of black artists on his music and the history of hip hop. Macklemore and Iggy Azalea have been criticised because they don’t seem to do this. There are definitely better versions of this argument by people who know more online! There’s also an exaggerated but quite funny riff on this theme by snl m.youtube.com/watch?v=ociMBfkDG1w
Anyway I definitely don’t think it’s perfect and sometimes I think it’s silly but I don’t like to see people pedant it to pieces when the general idea is one worth consideration.