AIBU to ask you to explain cultural appropriation and why it is bad to me

[ConfusedWife1234]

So I am a white woman of mixed European ancestry and I think most of the things I typically wear are European or US American in origin, apart from polo Shirts and khakis (which I learned are Indian in origin, but I did not even know this until recently).

So I am not sure what cultural appropriation is. Is it cultural appropriation:

-If a rich person dresses down
-If a poor person dresses like a billionaire
-If a civilian wears clothes of military origin
-If a white European dresses like a white American
-If a white European dresses like a Afroamerican
-If a young person attends a re-enactment group and dresses up for a historical event that happened before he or she was born

Or is is just cultural appropriation if a person from another culture chooses to dress in a dress worn for special occasion... like this girl who wore a Chinese wedding dress for her prom.

Also why is cultural appropriation bad. Not asking to be snarky here. Really interested to learn.

Is it that the dress is seen as sacred, like maybe a Christian would be offended if someone wore a cross as part of his dress... or is it the idea that a certain style of dress must be earned.

I personally think it is one of these issues which we must treat seriously and respectfully but it doesn’t help to draw the definition too widely. I definitely agree that it’s problematic for white European people to be wearing Native American headdresses or cornrows. In my view it is tasteless to use any cultural stereotypes and use for a costume party!

That said I personally have a great love for the Middle East/North Africa and Islamic culture, art and design. As well as visiting different countries, I do listen to music and try to replicate the dishes at home. I’ve been learning Egyptian classical dance (belly dance) for years. I would put this firmly in the camp of (harmless) cultural appreciation and its one of the reasons I love living in London because I can enjoy Moroccan music performed live and Arab food cooked by Arab people. What does make me cringe is a white person putting on a belly dance outfit and taking on an Islamic name. That IS cultural appropriation!

Hope that makes sense.

Didnt think id get past the comment that 99% of people who where khakis and polo shirts are white

Are they and you know this because....

And then I reached the comment that said cornrows are considered conservative and that we dont have the issue of natural hair being a problem in the uk

Hmm should tell that to my boss who criticised a girl for wearing them and laid it on thick about how much she loves her hair when its straight....

The bangra top
Yup I have no words there....

Red indian fancy dress party
Really....

I think the notion of CA has been explained however this post has also highlighted a lack of understanding here about what goes on in society, what is offensive and why which is somewhat deppressing.

@Comaawakening yes exactly how I feel

Faithless
Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by a guide. Could you explain please. And who decided this?

Sometimesitrains
I put “red indian” in inverted commas. I’m mid 40’s. People at the party were my age or older. We were taught these words as children so I was giving an example of how language/stereotyping has progressed. At the time, I don’t believe I’d heard of the indigenous people wishing to be called Native American. I certainly didn’t call NA’s red indians as an adult. We deffo called them Indians (but from America) in the belief this was fine. Ie cowboys and Indians.

And it was the Wild West. 🙄

FTR OP I think your comment about German music was off the mark. I’m British (and Irish) to my core and always perform Bach, Brahms, Mendelssohn with great feeling - they are my favourites!

I think if I were invited to a Wild West party, I'd dress as a horse or coyote. Just can't think how else I could be sensitive about it.

What's wrong with wearing a sari to a traditional Indian wedding? Won't it fit the surroundings more than a cocktail dress?

Personally I think most of it is virtue signalling horse shit.

Wild West party means dressing like s1e1 Westworld, surely?

Interesting. I spent some time volunteering at an orphanage in India and when I left the community gave me a sari and a salwar kameez. As a white Brit, maybe I should have refused the gift..

I think that the concept originated in the right place; that of respect for other culture's customs and practices. Unfortunately, however, it seems to have been 'appropriated' by professionally offended types (see various Guardian writers) and turned into something very ugly. This form goes against the idea of integration and multiculturalism and actively pits groups against each other, encouraging barriers and hostility. It also drowns out real examples and they then get dismissed, undermining the whole concept.

It seems to have turned into a bit of a stick to beat white people with too (any and all, see Chinese prom dress incident as an example). If two people, one white and one afro-Caribbean, both go to a fancy dress party in aboriginal cultural dress, would they both be called out equally for cultural appropriation, which they'd both be guilty of, or would it be more likely that attention would focus primarily on the white person?

I also don't understand, if this relates in part to oppressors/oppressed, why we celebrate drag queens taking the piss out of women, the world over? That's not cultural appropriation apparently....

What's wrong with wearing a sari to a traditional Indian wedding?

It was an example. Asking that question is exactly why cultural appropriation has developed, because people don't get that having choice to pick and choose can hit a raw nerve ( it may not, but it runs the risk). I would look ridiculous in a sari, like it's some sort of 'fancy dress'. The sari is beautiful, when worn by someone who holds that attire dear to them and who has been born into that culture, and for whom the sari holds meaning. I don't have any cultural connection to the sari although I appreciate their significance.

Unfortunately once you start giving examples it can then get into the realms of virtue signalling, 'I'm so sensitive, I don't feel it's right wearing a sari to my friend's wedding 'etc.

LittleMiss quite a number of Egyptian feminists would say that you, as a non Arab woman, were committing cultural appropriation by engaging in Middle East dancing...

How about the fashion for white people wearing a keffiyeh? Is that CA? Or is it only CA if it is worn as a fashion item rather than to symbolise solidarity with the Palestinian (or, more rarely, Kurdish) cause? If it is dependent on why it's being worn, then how can anyone else judge whether someone is culturally appropriating or culturally appreciating?

I’m unsure whether cornrows have spiritual significance but over the years black people have been looked down on for having natural hair and felt/feel under pressure to relax and straighten it in order to feel their hair is acceptable. Which obviously is a shitty state of affairs. So when white people sport locks or cornrows etc, they have no understanding or respect (imo) for the struggle that black people have to just wear their hair in a natural style.

*This^^
*

I've been to traditional Indian weddings before and I wouldn't dream of turning up in a sari. It makes me feel embarrassed just thinking about it. That seems to be the kind of scenario that gives rise to accusations of 'cultural appropriation' (justifiably so, IMO)* @daisychain01

Why would you be embarassed? I am Indian and whenever somebody non-Indian wears Indian clothing at a wedding, it is embraced by the guests and appreciated. You are making an effort to respect the culture in a private setting where you’re not profiting or benefitting from doing so.

I think when it becomes inappropriate is when it’s for commercial reasons, for publicity or to make money.
Take the turban for example - very symbolic to Sikhs.
If at the same wedding you attended, a white guest was wearing a turban then I completely believe that would be embraced by other turban wearers at the wedding. I have been to some Indian weddings where White groomsmen have worn a turban for the temple ceremony and the guests have loved it, it was nice to see.

However what Gucci did earlier this year was completely wrong. They donned turbans on their models for the wrong reasons - to provoke publicity (mostly bad), which ultimately has lined their pockets, raised further awareness of their brand and got people talking about them (=money).
If they had used the show to jointly raise awareness of the oppression of Sikhs and how the turban was worthy of being on their catwalk because it was a crown to millions of Sikhs and the rest of the world needed to know that, then great, I doubt they’d have received much criticism. But they didn’t, they just wheeled it out with no regard for what it represents, and I don’t think they actually cared.

I reckon fancy dress parties must surely have had their day now - it's such a minefield that going "as" someone else can stereotype groups negatively (cowboys as goodies, Indians as baddies etc), or trivialise historic events (remember Prince Harry's political gaff with his Nazi outfit?).

Why would you be embarassed? I am Indian and whenever somebody non-Indian wears Indian clothing at a wedding, it is embraced by the guests and appreciated.

Yup that's great if your guests feel comfortable doing that. I'm talking about me, and why I don't feel it's appropriate which is a perfectly valid response as well. I make my own decision about how I want to be. As I said, this whole topic is a minefield and will always create opposing views however one chooses to talk about it.

It's not fancy dress. It would be wearing traditional dress to a traditional event. I can see why it would be off for a white person to wear a sari day to day, but to an Indian wedding? As an invited guest? Seems perfectly appropriate to me. Respectful, even. Suited for the occasion, maintaining its identity.

Unfortunately once you start giving examples it can then get into the realms of virtue signalling, 'I'm so sensitive, I don't feel it's right wearing a sari to my friend's wedding 'etc

Well, that is what you said. "I've been to traditional Indian weddings before and I wouldn't dream of turning up in a sari." And together with your very weird projections about people who feel otherwise ("'They seems to live in their own little bubble, totally clueless about anything other than me, me, me"), 'virtue signalling' is exactly what you sounded like.

Re German classical music. I am sorry if I offended anybody. It was not my intention.
I really think people are reading things into what I wrote. I never claimed I was a 100 percent pure bred German. In fact I made clear i was of mixed European ancestry. I was not talking about blood but about culture by the way.

I know German classical music is enjoyed all over the world and I am happy that this is the case. I just think that people from very different cultures do not play it in a typical German way.
Many from east Asia for example play with great skill and talent but to me personally it feels like a piece of cultural understanding is missing.
And I am sorry if that came across wrong I did not want to say that they played without heart or without feeling but that the German heart/feeling was missing and to me personally it feels foreign... I think that this is just natural they did not grow up in that culture... and no, I do not think that they should be made study German culture... so just enjoy. Why do you care if it sounds German to me anyway?

Re Chinese dress: I think that this was not any dress but a dress typically worn by a Chinese upperclass person for their wedding. According to what I have heard. I do not really have any knowledge of Chinese culture.
To be honest for me it would feel odd if a Chinese Woman wore a European style wedding dress for their School leaving ceremony. I would not be offended but I would think it was odd.

So I a white British women wore a Saree to my wedding (well one of them) as did a lot of the guests. I also wore one to my father in laws 70th birthday and various other family events. Last week I had a sindoor on. I wear a transitional Tamil wedding bracelet as well. Why because my husband is Tamil and wanted a Tamil wedding. We had a traditional English one as well where we all wore western dress. I wear my wedding bracelet daily when not at work as it is in simple terms a symbol of marriage like a wedding ring which I also wear. When we go to temple as a family the priest gives us all sindoor.

I did once suggest to my mother in law that perhaps I would be offending people after I heard of cultural appropriation from a friend. However all the Tamil ladies in our community have been very welcoming to me and always want to explain to me how to wear a saree better or how to cook orka (which I hate and they find hilarious). The only people that seem offended are middle class white people....

And on a further note what should my Mixed race daughter do......

*traditional

Re khakis and polos. I did not learn they were Indian in origin until recently and I was really surprised to learn because to me they felt so white.
If I as a younger women was asked to come to a themed party dressed up as a prep school educated conservative white male in his fifties I would have chosen that kind of clothing. That is the demographic I typically see wearing it, but that is just my personal experience and I have never been to India and do not know many Indians.
Is it still worn there as traditional clothing? Does the traditional clothing it derives from look just like the polo shirts or khakis we know in Europe or does it look different.

The Chinese all begged me to have these photos done. They feel proud of their culture and want people from everywhere to love it to.