AIBU to ask you to explain cultural appropriation and why it is bad to me

[ConfusedWife1234]

So I am a white woman of mixed European ancestry and I think most of the things I typically wear are European or US American in origin, apart from polo Shirts and khakis (which I learned are Indian in origin, but I did not even know this until recently).

So I am not sure what cultural appropriation is. Is it cultural appropriation:

-If a rich person dresses down
-If a poor person dresses like a billionaire
-If a civilian wears clothes of military origin
-If a white European dresses like a white American
-If a white European dresses like a Afroamerican
-If a young person attends a re-enactment group and dresses up for a historical event that happened before he or she was born

Or is is just cultural appropriation if a person from another culture chooses to dress in a dress worn for special occasion... like this girl who wore a Chinese wedding dress for her prom.

Also why is cultural appropriation bad. Not asking to be snarky here. Really interested to learn.

Is it that the dress is seen as sacred, like maybe a Christian would be offended if someone wore a cross as part of his dress... or is it the idea that a certain style of dress must be earned.

can't resist leaving this here

www.druidry.org/library/members-articles/shamanism-celtic-world

Alpineflower, I have reported you, its one thing coming out with laughable notions, i.e. the Irish having being implicit in British Colonialism, ( split my sides at that one) but saying the famine was mostly in the west, and on one died in Dublin. How dare you DENY history and what is a huge tragedy of a people. I challenge you to come to Ireland and present your 'view' on their history.

Oh boy, so just for the record. I NEVER EVER said one needed German genes to be able to appreciate Wagner. In fact I said multiple times Wagner made references to German mythology and that people who had understanding of German culture (NOT GENES, don‘t you really see the difference or do you just enjoy taking offense?) might enjoy it far more.

EG a person from Japan (for example) might not understand what a Valkyre is, or a Tarnkappe, or a what kind of powers blades made by the dwarves have, how the rhinegold can loose it‘s innocent character and become poisonous to the soul, what the wood stands for mythological speaking and so on.

I am sure there are multiple references in Japanese mangas (for example) that I cannot get.

Do I want to ban people from other cultures from enjoying Wagner? No, I just think they might be missing cultural references.
I am not a musician or a musical critic by the way, just a woman who likes to listen to classical music, why does your opinion matter to you anyway.

By the way I know a lot of Germans fitting the Dichter and Denker stereotype. Maybe has to do with the type of persons one knows.

Polly, I agree with you, pretty horrific denial and deliberate misunderstanding of Irish history here. I agree that workers in England (and everywhere..) suffered in the industrial revolution... but to compare it or try to compete with Irish suffering in history, including the famine, suggests that the poster may be the kind of person who whenever racism or another culture’s suffering is mentioned in the news, eg. Black lives matter, goes ‘well, what about white people we suffer too’... basically missing the point and showing an inability to empathise with anyone outside their comfort zone, or recognise historical facts..

pollypebble-Alpineflower, I have reported you, its one thing coming out with laughable notions, i.e. the Irish having being implicit in British Colonialism, ( split my sides at that one) but saying the famine was mostly in the west, and on one died in Dublin. How dare you DENY history and what is a huge tragedy of a people. I challenge you to come to Ireland and present your 'view' on their history.

Reported me under what category? For what reason?
I said there were Irish men in the British army and that there were Irish slave owners. That is a fact
I said that the famine hit the west of Ireland and not Dublin. That is a fact.
There is nothing controversial about anything I said

Why don't you just argue your case instead of trying to censor uncontroversial historical disscussion?

So should the NZ rugby team perform the hakka?

I can't say I get bothered with the tourists I see swathed in tartan and didn't vikings braid their hair /beards when they were raping and pillaging their way across Scotland? Most 'things' have been imported from somewhere - music, art, fabrics, designs, food, ideas, literature...

I rember seeing an African American singer (Beyonce maybe?) wearing for a huge native American headdress. I just didn't know whether it was right or wrong for her to wear it (I guess Cher got away with it because of her ancestry)?

Sorry, I wanted to say: why does my opinion matter to you anyway? After all I am not a person trying to ban non Germans from listening to Wagner. I am just stating my opinion about how his music feels to me. To me it feels very German.
But why do people care? If they want to the can listen to Wagner 24/7 and claim it feels Japanese to them. Who cares as long as you do hurt anybody with what you are doing.

Alpineflower, under hate speech. As I would anyone who denied any tragedy, like Holocaust deniers. Im not engaging with you because you are clearly utterly deluded.

Cyberworrier -Polly, I agree with you, pretty horrific denial and deliberate misunderstanding of Irish history here.

In what way?

I agree that workers in England (and everywhere..) suffered in the industrial revolution... but to compare it or try to compete with Irish suffering in history, including the famine, suggests that the poster may be the kind of person who whenever racism or another culture’s suffering is mentioned in the news, eg. Black lives matter, goes ‘well, what about white people we suffer too’ basically missing the point and showing an inability to empathise with anyone outside their comfort zone, or recognise historical facts..

This is unfounded accusation and an ad hominem attack.
I have posted dates, laws and other sources. If you want to debate, come back at me with the same.

You also seem to be assuming that my heritage is exclusively 'white', or that I might not have some Irish, or Scots or Welsh for that matter, heritage as well

Alpineflower, under hate speech. As I would anyone who denied any tragedy, like Holocaust deniers. Im not engaging with you because you are clearly utterly deluded.

It is you who is using hateful speech, even in the post I am quoting now, not me.
I have not and never would deny the famine, I have read numerous first hand accounts of it, was horrific. In fact you are the one who denied famine happened in England

Can you point out to me where I have denied famine in Ireland, because that is quite a serious accusation

As I would anyone who denied any tragedy, like Holocaust deniers.

BTW refering to the Holocaust as a 'tragedy', or even comparing it to the Irish famine, is minimising what happened. It was much more than a tragedy. The Holocaust was the systematic industrialised genocide of millions of people.

@ConfusedWife1234 "But I guess I bore you with too much if German culture. "

That's ok. I live and work in Deutschland. I'm used to being Germansplained every single thing.

All the best!

Alpine- by undermining the suffering of Irish people, the extent of the famine and giving a distorted view of Irish history aligning the Irish people with british colonialism? Very different to how Scots sometimes distance themselves from British Colonialism whilst having been at the centre of British establishment since the creation of UK, to align the Irish with British Colonialism is very problematic and offensive.
Apologies if you were offended by the second bit you quoted, I simply meant that how you were comparing the struggles of Irish and English people in 19th centuries and seem adamant that there were no differences reminds me of when people do the same about race and discrimination in the present day. It is a possible extension of that train of thought- not saying you have done that, but that is what the debate re Irish English suffering reminded me of. I should have worded more carefully.

www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/distribution.html
Here's a map which shows how much of the population needed to take relief during the worst year of the famine. Over on the west side 100% of people needed famine relief. In Dublin it was as low as 5%. Of the people who died in Dublin, they almost certainly died of disease. From 1848 deaths by starvation fell and death by disease rose. The cholera epidemic that broke out was not linked to the famine, it also struck Britain - and it claimed many many lives.

It is not the same as holocaust denial to be aware that the famine affected some areas much more seriously than others. The west coast was greater affected because, not only were they much more heavily dependent on the potato in the first place (farmers in the east grew cereal crops) but it was harder for imports to reach the parts of Ireland that were further away from the rest of Europe.

And AlpineFlowers is correct when she says that it did not half the population of the country. The population pre famine was just over 8 million, and post famine it was just over 6.www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/demographics_pre.html The population of ireland post famine was still significantly higher than it had been just a hundred years before.
Of the two million missing - half of those emigrated rather than died. However emigration from Ireland had always been high. It rose substantially during the famine years (particularly 1847) but it was by no means a new thing.
As regards to what kind of messed up education Alpineflowers received - it is clear to me that it at least including basic maths - like knowing what half of 8 is.

I find it very offensive that you equate the purposeful murder of 6 million Jews (and the millions of others from various'undesirable' groups that the Nazis rounded up and committed atrocities on) with the, admittedly tragic, death of 1 million people due to famine and disease. Did the British Government do the best possible job for famine relief? No. But unlike us, they didn't have the benefit of hindsight - of knowing where and when the potato crop would fail next and how long or how widespread their famine relief would need to be. They were reacting to a disaster. And, as with anything, different people had different ideas of what the best reaction would be. A change in government also led to a change in policy, which didn't help - but certainly wasn't malicious.
Did they do what one would hope a modern government would to aid a famine stricken region? No - but they were a government of their time. Laissez Faire was the policy du jour across Europe. It was the terrible conditions, high mortality rates and utter desperation of poor people living at the time that led those in power to grow a social conscience and implement reforms that benefit us all to this day.
But, whilst they may have been guilty of many failures and poor responses, what they did not do is set out to purposefully murder the population of Ireland - and it is offensive to both them, and anyone who suffered in the actual holocaust, to equate the two.

I never equated the holocaust with the Irish famine. I equated Alphine with a holocaust denier as she is re writing history and claiming the Irish were equally responsible for the the British Empire. She has written really really inaccurate 'facts' claiming the no one died in Dublin and the famine mainly happened in the West. The population went up in Dublin as the starving assess made their way there to emigrate and look for food. And her 'fact; that most emigration was to the UK, inaccurate, it was USA. She has downplayed the Irish famine as is common and I merely held her up to it.Can you please Alpine quote me on here where I equated the famine to the holocaust and where I denied the English famine, haven't even mentioned it. And English government famine apologists you are equivalent to holocaust deniers in that you are denying history.

She didn't say no one died in Dublin. She said no one starved in Dublin. And the map of relief I posted would back up that that assertion is by and large correct. 95% of people in Dublin did not access aid. But claiming that someone who interprets that facts of the famine different to you (or links to facts you don;t like - such as the the actual number of people that died) is not the same as denying the holocaust. And equating those two types of people is equating the the two events by extension.

I simply meant that how you were comparing the struggles of Irish and English people in 19th centuries and seem adamant that there were no differences reminds me of when people do the same about race and discrimination in the present day.

I don;t think Alpine flowers said there was no difference. She said they were just as bad. Can you not accept that levels of suffering can be equal whilst forms of suffering can be completely different?
Infant mortality was so high in the Victorian era that children were often not given proper names as it was expected that would die so it wasn't worth the bother. It was statistically unlikely that any one person would live past their 5th birthday.
Ten families would live in one room. They would burn the door for firewood and sell the glass in the windows. The street would have one water pump and one toilet. The drinking water would cause Cholera.
Women and children had to work ten hour days in mills and down mines. There was no time limit for the amount of time men had to work. They would be paid a pittance - not enough to feed themselves and their families - obviously, or else parents wouldn't have forced their children into such dangerous, awful places. Getting trapped in machines was a regular occurrence and this would either leave you crippled and unable to work - or dead. If you survived they would charge you for loss of production whilst they switched the machines off to get you out. There are plenty of stories of girls' hair getting trapped in the machines and the girls getting scalped. They risked all this for virtually no money - how desperate must these people have been?
Women working in match factories suffered from phossy jaw - their bones rotted inside of them, due to the chemicals they were exposed to. For all illness and injury caused at work, there was no compensation.

When they could afford food -there was arsenic in the sugar and sheep's brains in the milk. Bakers would put all sorts into their dough to make it stretch further. People were regularly poisoned because what food they could afford was seriously contaminated and dangerous.

This all went on for a lot longer than 5 years. And it's not like it was all fun and games for the average English labourer prior to the industrial revolution either. Rents, unfair landlords, eviction, hunting acts, enclosures acts - all meant that agricultural workers would struggle to eat and had no security one month to the next. And that's before the various epidemics that swept the country, from time to time, get taken into account.

I don't expect Irish people to know much, or anything, about life in Victorian Britain... but I would expect anyone to accept that their people do not have a monopoly on suffering. And no one person gets to decide that x country definitely had it worse than y country forever and all time. You weren't there - who are you to judge the suffering of the people of y country?

Cyberworrier - by undermining the suffering of Irish people, the extent of the famine and giving a distorted view of Irish history

Again, can you please quote where I have done that?

aligning the Irish people with british colonialism?

Irish people, along with English, Scots and Welsh, were involved in colonialism (ie the British Empire)

Very different to how Scots sometimes distance themselves from British Colonialism whilst having been at the centre of British establishment since the creation of UK, to align the Irish with British Colonialism is very problematic and offensive.

Do you deny that there were Irish slave owners, in both the USA and the BWI? Do you deny that Irish men joined the British army?

Apologies if you were offended by the second bit you quoted

I wasn't, no problem

I simply meant that how you were comparing the struggles of Irish and English people in 19th centuries and seem adamant that there were no differences reminds me of when people do the same about race and discrimination in the present day.

Apart from the famine, although I have to here there was famine in England in the early 1800's, what were the 'differences'?
Industrialisation in England was a difference, but Irish people migrated to England too and vice versa to (Dublin for example)
Army records show that Irish soldiers were taller and healthier than their English, urban, counterparts (these type of records are very detailed, they include height, countenance, weight etc, they also include country of origin and religion )

It is a possible extension of that train of thought- not saying you have done that, but that is what the debate re Irish English suffering reminded me of. I should have worded more carefully.

No problem. I understand. I just made a terrible and embarrassing spelling mistake on the Kanye West topic

I agree with Polly some outrageous comments on irish history then a tenacious ranting. I can't see where Polly equated the famine with the holocaust. To imply the Irish where part of what made and maintained the British Empire is highly insulting. Then all the defence stuff. And Alpineflowers maybe none wants to here your crap anymore? Bit of a bully methinks, accusing posters of things they haven't said, posting continuous links etc, can't be wrong eh. You've accused poster of things they have not said addled about whether did day. You are very ignorant and a bully. Fuck off.

I don't expect Irish people to know much, or anything, about life in Victorian Britain... but I would expect anyone to accept that their people do not have a monopoly on suffering.

Excuse me? Er are you for real? You do realise that Irish people study history and can read right? And maybe we don't need a history lesson from you. Victorian England did not suffer on a par with the Irish under Britsh rule. The famine was as much a consequence of Britishlaws as it was the blight. I am shocked at your comments about Ireland and irish people, and don't bother with a useless history lesson, I have aPHD in it. Shocking. Racist to boot!

pollypebble -I never equated the holocaust with the Irish famine. I equated Alphine with a holocaust denier*

Wow, so now I am in the same bracket as Holocaust denier.
You DID equate the famine with holocaust BTW

as she is re writing history and claiming the Irish were equally responsible for the the British Empire.

So produce the evidence to refute me. I didn't actually say 'equally', another misquote by you

She has written really really inaccurate 'facts' claiming the no one died in Dublin and the famine mainly happened in the West

I did not say 'no one died in Dublin'. The famine DID mainly affect the west.
Instead of throwing ad hominem insults, post my so called 'really really inaccurate 'facts' ' and counter them with your evidence point by point

The population went up in Dublin as the starving assess made their way there to emigrate and look for food. And her 'fact; that most emigration was to the UK, inaccurate, it was USA.

Most emigration was to the UK, (and to Australia, New Zealand). This is clear on the 1951 census

She has downplayed the Irish famine as is common and I merely held her up to it.

Where have I downplayed it?

Can you please Alpine quote me on here where I equated the famine to the holocaust

quote pollypebble
'As I would anyone who denied any tragedy, like Holocaust deniers.'

...the English famine, haven't even mentioned it.

No you haven''t. It's called lack of context

And English government

It was not an 'English government'

famine apologists you are equivalent to holocaust deniers in that you are denying history.

Please show me where I have
1 Been an apologist for the famine
2 denied the Holocaust
3 denied history

american indian warbonnets are not worn by women
only worn by males and ones of higher standing
war chiefs or elders
American indian braids and feathers all have significance
few bands/tribes/ wore the warbonnet and only for
ceremony or actual war

a whole lot of black americans who decended from slaves
have irish /english names
because they had to take the name of thier owner

crosses are not just a christian thing
and have been around alot longer than jesus

Cheerymom - agree with Polly some outrageous comments on irish history then a tenacious ranting. I can't see where Polly equated the famine with the holocaust. To imply the Irish where part of what made and maintained the British Empire is highly insulting. Then all the defence stuff. And Alpineflowers maybe none wants to here your crap anymore? Bit of a bully methinks, accusing posters of things they haven't said, posting continuous links etc, can't be wrong eh. You've accused poster of things they have not said addled about whether did day. You are very ignorant and a bully. Fuck off.

Oh the irony

I have reported you, its one thing coming out with laughable notions, i.e. the Irish having being implicit in British Colonialism, ( split my sides at that one)

I am afraid this is true. A visit to many Christian graveyards in India will confirm it.

I have Irish antedents, btw.

And here is an interesting article about ‘Raj’ Irish soldiers. If you find yourself part of an empire you didn’t want to be part of, why not exploit it for your own interests? seems to be the rationale.

www.roguery.com/golden/east/index.htm

You do realise that Irish people study history and can read right?

Yes, but that does not mean I expect Irish people as standard to either care or take the time to learn the in depth history of another country. Particularly their social history - which is where the suffering in Victorian England can be found, not in the political history. I wouldn't expect anyone to go out of their way to learn another country's in depth history unless they had a specific interest.