To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

Believe me ReliefOfChaos, I would be delighted if there was no need to different between males and females except for in a medical setting.

However, violence against people who were born with the reproductive set up to produce eggs and gestate young (for simplicity I'll call the 'women') is disproportionately carried out by men. One of the approaches society takes to reduce this risk is single sex spaces. If these are now going to become mixed sex, that safeguard is removed. It's not a matter of purity, it's a matter of safety (and privacy and dignity too).

So you think you have the right to the purity of your group based on genetics or governmental approval? At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, do you not see a problem with that?

Could you let me know? As clearly I am more right-wing and totalitarian than I ever expected to be, and cannot trust my own opinions any more, so I would be interested to hear your take on the problem.

Oh yeah

And thats going to look awesome on twitter if someone uses that quote

Another example of the transphobia of mumsnet when its not

"One of the approaches society takes to reduce this risk is single sex spaces. If these are now going to become mixed sex, that safeguard is removed. It's not a matter of purity, it's a matter of safety (and privacy and dignity too)."

Only they're not going to become - they already have been for the better part of a decade! And the purity of what is considered a woman argument IS a right wing argument: it's the sanctity of marriage, it's Britian for people that we're here at the last Ice Age. That's why people say there is #nodebate here.

the purity of what is considered a woman argument

It's biology chicken. Not politics.

And thats going to look awesome on twitter if someone uses that quote

Ah shit. Sorry everyone.

But FFS. I am FOR trans rights in so far as I want to know what the benefit is of removing safeguards that are currently established in law and if there is a good reason to remove them, fine. I just want to know what that good reason is that doesn't infringe on women's rights, and so far a straight answer is never forthcoming.

Relief. Transpeople already have the right to BE. As they should. What specific rights do transpeople not have?

the purity of what is considered a woman

But what does it mean? Honestly, to you, Relief. What does "woman" mean? What does "woman" mean, if it is not a biological class marker, and how can "biology" be right-wing or left-wing?

Not yours squirrel

reliefs

maisy misunderstood it...so will anyone on twitter

the purity of what is considered a woman

Do you mean natal woman or transwoman there?

The anti-trans hysteria on here is beyond the pale now

It doesn't exist. It's not here. You've made it up to argue against.

anti-trans hysteria

Oh look, now it's hysteria. We've ticked all the misogynist terminology to get women to shut up about their safety and rights by now, haven't we?

Oh wait no, I don't think anyone has asked if we're all on our periods yet, have they?

What rights do transpeople not currently have?

Ok so:
Trans people are at risk of everything from bullying to murder specifically because they are trans i.e. broadly speaking because their gender presentation or their stated gender doesn't match their biology.
It is already illegal to discriminate against trans people on these grounds e.g. refusing to employ someone because they are trans. Correct me if I'm wrong but that part is already true for e.g. most employment before having a GRC
Actual crimes against trans people are covered under hate crimes and ditto.

Nobody is suggesting those rights go away.

Trans people have dedicated services e.g. it is absolutely right that a man transitioning to a woman should have specialist services.
And ditto.

What will happen (is already happening because service providers don't understand the current law) is that the OTHER legal right - of SEX based spaces, discrimination and attack - is being eroded.
Some of this is due to the fact that lovely, well meaning and possibly abused transwomen are just not the right people to be in e.g. women's shelters. And they should absolutely have specialist services.

But some of it is the Ian Huntleys and wannabes. Groomers. Peeping Toms. And THAT is who will have life made a heck of a lot easier if self-ID comes in. Plus CFs who want to get on all women shortlists, get an advantage on job applications in under-represented fields etc.

Ok. I’m going to have a go at defining “woman purity”:
Periods- massive heavy clotty ones
Anemia because of periods
Pregnancy
Pregnancy loss
Childbirth
Breastfeeding
Mastitis
Cervical cancer
Ovarian cancer
Menopause
Hysterectomy

Did I miss anything?

^There are other posters on FWR that think the same. But everyone comes on here saying the same stuff...all FWR is like this, all FWR is transphobic, FWR comes over as right wing

When in reality there are a mass of posters who all have different opinions and lines in the sand

And yes ...some posters are pissed!! Really pissed and angry and shouty and sweary...but thats their choice^

I've occasionally read the trans threads on here and on those occasions I have usually found myself reading material that reads like it could have been written by the American alt-right or evangelical conservatives. Not all feminists write like this about trans issues, but there is a lot of anger and some posters do use what can at the very least be construed as trans-phobic language even if that is not the intended meaning.

It's their choice; they are free to express themselves as they wish. But freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences of that speech, and the consequence here is that many women have withdrawn from the debate and others like me have found themselves actively agreeing with much of the feminist position but being repelled by the appropriation of alt-right language and lack of empathy.

Rufustheyawningreindeer - but a lot of the things you're saying you have no issues with trans people over are specifically things I have seen brought up very loudly on MN.

I've seen repeated trans debates on here in which multiple posters are vehemently arguing that trans women shouldn't be allowed into women's toilets because cubicles where the doors don't reach to the ceiling don't offer enough protection, that they refuse to use chosen pronouns because that is "pandering to a delusion", that trans is solely a mental health problem and gender reassignment surgery shouldn't be an option, and repeatedly go on about "autogynophile" which is a highly dubious and loaded term.

There are a number of very aggressive posters here who absolutely are rejecting any kind of nuance in this debate and aren't accepting of trans people and just want to protect women in specific areas. They absolutely want any courtesy and rights already granted to trans people stopped and removed. That's what I mean by "if you believe in trans rights it feels like you're not welcome here".

What rights do transpeople not have?

lvx

if you believe in trans rights it feels like you're not welcome here

But thats my point' i really dont feel like I'm not welcome

misti

I don't disagree with any of your post

What trans rights do you think I don't believe in?

Earlier on , someone said that there was anti-trans hysteria on here. I don't see any. People seem to see what they want to see on social media. As a new( ish) member, and as one of those who signed the Guardian letter, I find these threads both heartening, frustrating, and educational. Some of the time it is impossible to know where the poster is coming from, though. I hope that women on these threads know that there is a wide variety of opinion among trans/ transgender/ transsexual people, and those with more " sensible" views ( I would say that, wouldn't I? :-) ) are as appalled by the behaviour and attitudes of some of those who claim to be " speaking for us" as anyone else.

YABU OP. I am supportive of trans rights and I am a feminist. I’m also supportive of women’s rights too.

Is that ok with you?

Rufustheyawningreindeer - eh, we are all different. I certainly avoid the feminism section on MN these days as it makes me feel icky and uncomfortable. But we all draw the line in different places.

LVX

Yeah ive certainly seen posts that have made me uncomfortable, again I wouldn't disagree with you there