To think you're not allowed to be a feminist on MN if you believe in trans rights?

[EyeRollChampion]

Seems like every post in the feminism category atm is so vehemently anti-trans rights and that anyone who disagrees with this standpoint is ganged up on and ridiculed.

Or 'aren't I brave posting the same viewpoint as the overwhelming majority? I will not be silenced! (Now tell me how amazing and inspirational I am)'

I will probably be told I'm not a good feminist for believing we should respect the gender people identify with. Identity is of no importance to equal rights or mental health, of course. And they're a minority so who cares? Because changing room horror.

I'll get flamed for this because apparently this is not a view you're allowed to hold on mumsnet, TRA (aka anyone who isn't against trans rights) are the enemy of all women and trying to deny free speech.

Tell me I'm not alone?

There is a certain view that feminists can be regarded as a single, homogeneous mass, and anyone who says they're a feminist but be held responsible for other feminists believing in fart rape.

It ain't so.

Mind you, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had around farting. FartRape is obviously a ridiculous thing to say, but farting as misogynist space-claiming is a "thing"........

It's a shame that FWR is now almost exclusively trans related. No space for interesting diversions like that.

Incidentally, what rights do trans people not have at the moment?

"LVX

"Yeah ive certainly seen posts that have made me uncomfortable, again I wouldn't disagree with you there"

Me too. But I'm a grown up-I don't need to be protected from ideas and attitude I don't like on a internet forum

Mistigri, 07.28. The whole thing alienates feminists who think there is room for more nuance and less anger. YY this.

I am always very wary when people tell women not to be so angry. I does often mean "Stop expressing opinions I don't like" or even "Stop expressing opinions at all". But I'll let that pass. Tell me about "nuance". What do you mean?

There is a certain view that feminists can be regarded as a single, homogeneous mass, and anyone who says they're a feminist but be held responsible for other feminists

Is this an example of NAFALT?

maisymisunderstood it...so will anyone on twitter
Yeah. I totally missed it.
Sorry about that.

Millicent, nuance= a bit different

MillicentF - apparently they currently don't have the right to not have a core part of their identity questioned and dismissed in normal society. It isn't normal on MN to discuss whether gay people should have conversion therapy, or if a lesbian just needs to meet the right man, or if women are really safe with black men due to their notorious lusts, but it's perfectly acceptable to say that trans women are "just autogynophiles" or "don't need hormones, just need mental health treatment".

Lots more too. But that's the single overwhelming thing that MN constantly reminds me of.

I have many many issues with the legal ramifications of the GRA/self ID clusterfuck. Then there is the criminal exploitation of vulnerable people by the cosmetic surgery industry. And I have great concerns about under18s being forced into making life altering choices. The fringe aggression of the TRAs is despicable.
But ... women repeatedly demanding that everyone must toe the biological line and denying transpeople's right to exist by continually ranting about chromosomes is transphobic. Stupid too because do they honestly think that transpeople are going to just shuttup and disappear?

So what should we all do about it? Given that you have "many many issues"? Women opposed to this agenda aren't going to stfu and disappear either. What do you actually think you're contributing to this other than Having Your Say?

So you think you have the right to the purity of your group based on genetics or governmental approval? At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, do you not see a problem with that?

Lol nice try, matey.

But I'm a grown up-I don't need to be protected from ideas and attitude I don't like on a internet forum

Yep

Sometimes i say something (rare)

Sometimes i report (rare)

Sometimes i ignore it til the conversation changes

actively agreeing with much of the feminist position but being repelled by the appropriation of alt-right language and lack of empathy.

Do let me know when you find some empathy for women among transactivists and their allies.

I wonder if 'FWR is mean' actually means 'I don't get away with just being horrible and am instead expected to back up my arguments?'

Yep! Literal violence!

MillicentF - apparently they currently don't have the right to not have a core part of their identity questioned and dismissed in normal society. It isn't normal on MN to discuss whether gay people should have conversion therapy, or if a lesbian just needs to meet the right man, or if women are really safe with black men due to their notorious lusts, but it's perfectly acceptable to say that trans women are "just autogynophiles" or "don't need hormones, just need mental health treatment

False equivalence- gay and black aren’t “identities” for a start. And they fact that trans might be AG or dysphoria or a preference or non binary is exactly why it needs to be supported by MH expertise. Otherwise there is the potential for a vulnerable person not getting essential support.

Do let me know when you find some empathy for women among transactivists and their allies.

Whataboutery is generally the sign of someone losing an argument.

FWIW I have no time for the more strident trans activists either.

This sort of thing just puts all non-obsessed people off. You don't want a debate, you want a fight and you want to shut down disagreement.

they currently don't have the right to not have a core part of their identity questioned and dismissed in normal society

Uh. I think trans people do already have that right? As I understand it, they are protected by the GRC and the GRA. The process of getting a GRC does require them to have their “identity questioned” (but not necessarily dismissed!) but that’s because believing that you are of the opposite sex/gender to your birth sex is fundamentally problematic within the law, so it is a legal process.

Also it’s about trans people some who transcending safeguarding for example you would not have a male teacher in a school high supervising the female dorms on a school trip because it’s safe guarding

However a male teacher now says she is a she and is now allowed to supervise the girls dorms and the only thing that has changed is hair length and clothing

A female prison officer would not be expected to give a male prisoner intermit search but after donning saying she is now a he she can now what search men in the prison

Not on

Sometimes i ignore it til the conversation changes

So, my issue is that that effectively means I ignore the feminism board as it seems so overwhelmingly one note "argh trans".

Which isn't really any skin off my nose - I can live my life pretty happily without MN's particular brand of "feminism" or just wander over here if I fancy a dust up - but it does mean that I agree with the OP - MN isn't a welcoming place if you believe in trans inclusive feminism. For what it's worth, I'm trying quite hard to not make my posts massively emotive or moralizing (probably failing, but tone on the internet is hard!) but just agreeing with a factual statement.

NoSquirrels - have you read this thread even? Multiple instances of people questioning trans identities! Anyway, this is turning into a total time sink debate in which no one will change anyone's mind, so I shall do as suggested elsewhere and amble off.

Multiple instances of people questioning trans identities!

On a board discussing the impact of new proposed legislation that will impact women’s existing rights.

But in terms of rights already given to trans people, I stand by my assertion.

Trans people are welcome to their beliefs on gender.

Radical feminists are welcome to their thoughts on gender.

No one falls out until one group try to convince the other that their beliefs are wrong. Even then, it doesn’t matter much - I am religious but my agnostic DH and I rub along all right together. But if he decided to campaign for legislation that would make his agnosticism more import than my religious convictions, I expect we’d be questioning each other’s identities too.

Having your identity questioned isn’t wrong in and of itself.

“MN isn't a welcoming place if you believe in trans inclusive feminism“

The problem is that being a trans inclusive feminist means that you have, at the very least, skated over some serious issues. I don’t care for extremist language, and I like good manners. But I really don’t like the fact that I don’t seem to have a say in a pretty significant change in society, and that I have questions nobody will give me straight answers to. I really want to be a trans inclusive feminist. But I also don’t want to buy a pig in a poke. Let’s have an open discussion, however uncomfortable, and go on from there.

Multiple instances of people questioning trans identities!

The horror! Women not believing and doing what they are told!

A female prison officer would not be expected to give a male prisoner intermit search but after donning saying she is now a he she can now what search men in the prison

Here's a twitter thread by a woman distressed to have been patted down at security by a trans identified male. See the minimising and bullying that she is the one in the wrong:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ionic_woman/status/992081597536047105