Munchausen Syndrome

[BlooperReel]

AIBU to ask if you have experienced anyone with this condition? Or if there is something similar? If so, what were the 'symptoms' and how (if at all) did you get them help/did they recognise it?

I am concerned for a relative who I know lies or embellishes illnesses, conditions etc, to the point where they will exaggerate an existing condition so much they make themselves worse by not taking medication/leaving it so long to go to the Dr that their condition then requires hospitalisation.

Their health issues are all they want to talk about, to the point I can see their eyes almost glaze over when another topic is being spoken about until it can circle back round to them/their upcoming treatment/symptoms and so on.

I completely disagree with zzzzzz.
Health anxiety is NOT Munchausens.

Munchausens is very serious. And very very rare. Comparing it to a bit of being a bit of a hydrocondriac is NOT what it is.

Do you realise how rare Munchausens is? Very rare.
The mental health state of pretending that you/your child is very ill with cancer for eg, so that you get the attention. That is very rare. Government Guidelines attached suggests its 1 in a million. So not common.

And many many ASD parents are accused of it. But that dismisses and demeans what a serious condition it really is.

As does this whole thread. To be accused of it, is utterly utterly insulting, to a very deep level.
If you're not!!

And this technique of flimsily accusing people, especially parents of SN children, who are the most common to be accused these days, of such a serious MH issue, is being done quite a bit.

And that is so wrong. I can't seem to put into words how wrong it is.

I have found many of the posters on this thread so incredibly dismissive, it's so insulting.

For those who are unfamiliar with the difference between the two:

Munchausens is where someone fabricates or fakes symptoms or illness for attention, for example showing up at A&E pretending you have abdominal pains so you can undergo tests and receive attention and other benefits. Munchausens by proxy simply means you are doing it to another person, for example a mother feigning that her child has cancer by under feeding him, shaving his head, etc.

Health anxiety is an anxiety disorder where the person is preoccupied with worries about getting ill; the difference is, they are genuinely worried that they might be. They misinterpret all kinds of benign physical symptoms such as a headache as potentially meaning something catastrophic like a brain tumour. They are genuinely afraid they may have something wrong with them, and spend a lot of time trying to reassure themselves with doctor's visits, online research, physical monitoring (taking their own pulse for example). Due to being to anxious, sufferers often bring on anxiety symptoms such as chest pain or breathlessness which they then interpret as being signs of something dangerous like a heart attack, increasing their anxiety and intensifying the symptom in a nasty vicious cycle.

If someone presents to A&E with stomach pain, whatever its cause, and are afraid it might be something serious like appendicitis, and this is part of a wider pattern for them over time of seeking a lot of medical attention for minor ailments or sensations, along with the reassurance seeking from friends and family and the internet and so forth, it may indicate health anxiety.

If they present, knowing they don't have any pain, and fake it so they can be seen by a doctor, maybe given medication, given lots of time and attention from family, while knowing they have nothing wrong with them deep down, that may be munchausens.

Munchausens is more rare than health anxiety but still needs to be kept in mind when dealing with someone with frequent presentations to medical services with no evidence of anything wrong. I knew a chap recently who went to A&E saying he had end stage lung cancer and was under chemo in another part of the country and couldn't breathe, he explained he had multiple tumours and months to live.

The hospital gave him a scan and found he didn't have any cancer at all, perfectly healthy. They said this to him and his response was a 'oh, that's good news, thanks' and walking away. That is potentially munchausens.

If he'd arrived with actual mild breathlessness and mild chest pain terrified it might be cancer with no reason to think so, they may be health anxiety. If it's part of a wider pattern of him doing this repeatedly with different symptoms.

Hope that clears it up a bit!

It's worth noting that people faking illness for other practical gains like time off work or drugs aren't classed as munchausens, more malingerers. Munchausens is more about the person receiving attention and care rather then practical benefits from being sick.

Munchausens and health anxiety are both real illnesses. Ironically, the person who is faking illness for attention or terrified they have stomach cancer based on a bit of a stomach pain both are suffering from an illness, a mental illness rather than the physical one they are fabricating or irrationally afraid of.

I've seen Munchausen by proxy too, and I did notice someone - there will always be someone she was copying or trying to mirror, and would sponge off anything they could use.

FWIW I am a GP. I did have the skills to I tubate and manage an airway when I worked in s hospital but there is no way I could do that norm in the GP surgery. We don’t have the equipment, the support (trained staff) and have not kept our skills up to date. In very rural areas this may be quite different, for good reason.

As said, you've got to be really careful about leaping on the armchair diagnosis of Munchausens.

I've seen people repeatedly make themselves ill, or injure themselves, or lie about it, to get medical attention. It some cases the person had, had heavy involvement of professionals in their life, some whilst in the Care System. Some because they used to be in institutions (this was some time ago) etc and they 'needed' validation from someone in a position of power to say that they were OK. Health Care is a personal service and they still craved that.

I've known female Health Workers to be stalked via the excuse of needing Care. We had one man keep his arm deliberately infected so he could attend the dressing service, just to see a particular Nurse.

I've seen, what could be confused for Munchausens by proxy, but again, it is the need to keep Professional involvement in their life.

TheDrinksAreOnMe
I've seen Munchausen by proxy too, and I did notice someone - there will always be someone she was copying or trying to mirror, and would sponge off anything they could use.

This strikes me as very true from what I've observed.

I don't wish to dismiss anyone's health conditions. I have a hidden degenerative disease/disorder that I've managed for years and correct diagnosis took ages to get. Some days I am in no pain and can do everything. My medical notes clearly show how I was viewed before diagnosis.

I think that when people are faking ill health they seem to go for more well known, visible, attention grabbing diseases.

I thought someone close to me had this but in the end it transpired she was addicted to morphine

What I've often wondered is whether Munchausen sufferers know or understand their behaviour or whether the compulsion to mislead is so strong that they fool themselves, if you see what I mean.

I remember the case if Beverly Allitt (MBP) and how she was cast as an evil murderer; I always wondered what level of insight, if any, she had into her own actions. Or was her mental state so poor that she could not identify boundaries between caring and harming?

Yes, Munchausens patients are aware they are feigning the illness. If they were unaware, and genuinely believed they were sick, that wouldn't be munchausens, it'd either be someone with no mental illness who believed they were poorly but were found to be healthy (for example someone who as a one off went to A&E panicking that they had a brain tumour because they felt a bit dizzy), or suffering from health anxiety, if it was part of a pattern where the person catastrophically misinterpreted lots of benign symptoms to be dangerous and spent a lot of time trying to seek reassurance that they weren't dangerously unwell or a diagnosis to prove they were right about being ill.

Munchausen's is not the same as health anxiety
People with health anxiety are not trying to manipulate, they are terrified they or their loved one is gravely ill.

People with Munchausen's or F&II are know what they are doing even if they have no insight into why they are doing it.
Its rarely about the money, contrary to popular belief about benefits scroungers.

Its a really interesting field of MH.
There is some research about F&II that is worth reading.
Unfortunately it can be seen as a bit of a check list for diagnosis and its not.
A lot of the signs of F&II are perfectly natural reactions to having a genuinely sick child.

Interesting discussion. The insistence of medical tests for sick children, is often viewed suspiciously, and parents who seem to be well informed. Which is exactly what I have been with my daughter. And if I hadn’t, she probably wouldn’t be here today.
A GP saw her three times over a couple of days, and had prescribed her an antibiotic (even though she takes them prophylactically every day), and repeatedly dismissed my concerns over her heart rate, even while her fever was down. I was told the fever responding to neurofen was a good sign, which I now know, is complete rubbish. After the third visit, I took her to a&e, and she was sent home with a diagnosis of a uti....which she didn’t have. And I took her back that night, and insisted they did a blood test. They agreed, even though they still thought she just had a Uti. Shortly after, we were told she had a highly dangerous bacterial infection in her blood stream, and she was in hospital for over a week. It makes me sad when I read the news regarding the little 8 year old boy who died with Addisons, and how no blood test was done. As a child’s parent, we are their best advocate...and that extends to every aspect of their well being in my book. I will happily endure the eye rolls and negative attitudes from staff..as long as it keeps my daughter safe, then so be it.

Apologies - I know I'm late to the party, but this is a thread which hits home for me.

OP - your relative needs help. Talk to GP. Don't try to 'out' then unless absolutely necessary because munchie's are known to be aggressive when confronted. As to whether you stick with her.... it's up to you. But make a choice and stick to it, because right now she's taking the mick because she knows you'll come in to 'drop off' toiletries which ends in chatting and attention which is exactly what she wants. If you choose to cut her out of your life, then make sure you do exactly that! Otherwise you'll be ferrying around toiletries for the rest of eternity.

Now, in case the rest of you are wondering what I know about munchausen, my daughter suffers with it. She's currently in recovery and even runs an instagram documenting her journey. Although, I will point out, she hasn't yet recovered and still has fairly frequent 'slip ups'. Treatment is generally CBT, but getting a diagnosis is hard because there are an awful lot of drs who don't believe its a 'real' thing and tend to dismiss her. She's currently still seeking an official diagnosis but we as her family and herself recognize what it is.

I get it's hard for anyone involved, but you've got to remember that they're struggling too and they need help. Only tending to them when they're in hospital isn't going to help, so please do chose what you want to do, but be aware sparks could fly in an attempt to get you back.

I have relatives who have been like this for the last twenty years that I've known them. Illnesses are either made up or exaggerated massively. They often take it in turns, so one will be ill, then the other. Always well enough to go on holiday though, just really ill again as soon as they get home. Things are often clearly made up..the most recent lie was that she was "opened up right from top of torso to the bottom", when she'd only had an overnight stay in hospital. Often we've literally walked in to be told she'd had to ring the paramedics three times that week. It gets very tiring, to the point that I now completely ignore. So when I'm told about the paramedics etc., I say nothing and literally look away.

@lexie that book sickened was fascinating and I believed it all but an investigative journalist has put together an extremely compelling case that Julie in fact is the one lying and desperate for attention and that she made up the medical abuse claims.

Sorry I’m late to this thread. To those with MH issues who admitted you make up illness when you are struggling MH wise, how do you think people around you should respond? I know someone with BPD who also fakes things and copies things and another who vastly over exaggerates, how is it best for people around them to respond?

I’m worried people think I have this. I suffer with health issues and metal health issues, which can exasperate existing health conditions and symptoms. I often worry people think I’m lying so I try to keep things to myself and end up getting super ill. I’ve been laid up/in and out of hospital for 3 weeks now with a serious pelvic infection and can barely move and although I’ve never suffered specifically with health anxiety I’m seeing it in myself now and even when I’m feeling up to hobbling to the shop I’m scared Incase I collapse again and i end up making myself have a panic attack. It’s terrifying and even though it’s not a physical illness I’d say it’s quite an illness so although you think your relative is lying I’d cut them some slack because chances are they are seriously suffering inside. Can you speak to said persons doctor? Are you NOK?
Hope my post made sense!

I was sort of involved with a family where the mother was suspected of having Mauchensens by Proxy. It turned into a Care case as the mother fabricated illnesses in her ds and he was treated for type 1 diabetes when he was never diagnosed with it (the mother claimed a particular doctor gave the diagnosis which he denied). The child was taken into care but IIRC the mother was not prosecuted as the diagnosis of MBP is apparently hard to ascertain.

I knew someone (Friend 1) who used to collect illnesses and conditions from people she knew, as well as from other sources (she was a former nurse so was pretty clued up on it all anyway). The worst was when, after a mutual friend (F2) had been diagnosed with a very rare, inoperable tumour, F1was convinced she had it too, and insisted on getting all the tests done for it. It was just cruel to F2, who really was very seriously ill, that she was trying to divert attention away from her.

I have fibromyalgia and my symptoms change. I can be like a spring chicken one day and be in so much pain the next. I’m sure people think i’m making it up. I’ve had loads of tests and nothing comes back that there Is an issue. I am lucky my doctor knows the condition and works well me to find solutions and medications that work. I do a lot of just getting through it and don’t ask for a lot of help from people. It does get lonely and the only people who see my real suffering is my DH and kids. They are all fantastic.