Munchausen Syndrome

[BlooperReel]

AIBU to ask if you have experienced anyone with this condition? Or if there is something similar? If so, what were the 'symptoms' and how (if at all) did you get them help/did they recognise it?

I am concerned for a relative who I know lies or embellishes illnesses, conditions etc, to the point where they will exaggerate an existing condition so much they make themselves worse by not taking medication/leaving it so long to go to the Dr that their condition then requires hospitalisation.

Their health issues are all they want to talk about, to the point I can see their eyes almost glaze over when another topic is being spoken about until it can circle back round to them/their upcoming treatment/symptoms and so on.

They are not necessarily a progression zzzz. In fact many people with munchausen's would hate to have their child get the attention they crave.
But research shows that carers who fake or induce illness in their children often have a history of extreme attention seeking behaviour including faking illness/accident.

One of Dayna Glaser's red flags (from a GOSH presentation) is maternal autism.
I failed to find any research that backs this up.
Another article she has co-written does not mention autism, but does bring up personality disorders, but maternal autism is a very worrying red flag.
I know of (1 personally, 5+ online) parents accused of FII, all children eventually were diagnosed with ASD and/or EDS. When it comes to invisible disabilities there is a huge culture of parent blame, and especially mother blame.

These pages are from a book I have.
I’m not arguing that FII doesn’t exist, but if you have a child with difficult to spot issues you can feel extremely vulnerable.

zzzz I don't think so because I believe its classed as a personality disorder.
Its very difficult to prove, rightly difficult to accuse but its a very dangerous form of abuse (the FII rather than the munchausen's).

I totally get why people are uneasy about all this. I have a child with ASD and I had a very sick child who took a long time to get dx with the illness that killed her.
Sorry to go on about my kids but they are relevant to this.

Thank you for this discussion - really illuminating. And for you VanGogh - for your honesty and contribution to our understanding. LIfe must be horrible for you sometimes.

And for you Not
Others are sufferring either with not being believed, (I was sent away from A&E three times with my child before they finally admitted him with a very real illness), or with needing to somehow experience "care".

(There is also the not to be ignored humourous side of the drama llama type who spins stories)

As a species we need attention. Really need it in some form. Validation, a sense of being cared for, being understood, being listened to. These are vital and frequently ignored or dismissed by those who are not lacking in attention themselves.

If we understood this better a large number of problems in society would be easier to find solutions to I think.

Someone I know is like this, buys lots of pills and potions off the internet to feed to her children, 15+ a day, as she has persuaded herself they have terrible illnesses. She carries around a file of medical notes and research, and is always fighting to have tests done. She'll tell anyone who'll listen. Yet her children appear exceptionally healthy, bright eyed and beautiful skin. Though they are frequently absent with their rare illnesses and complaining of stomach pain which I wonder might be the pills? I don't know.

I thought about calling her GP as it seemed so strange and extreme...

This is all so sad...and I’m sure there are some cases that are truly genuine. But it still makes it seem that this ‘term’ has created an general air of underlying suspicion, that reading these comments, makes me feel very worried & uncomfortable. Some issues are NOT obvious, so for everyone commenting on how well certain children appear, this is not an indicator of anything! Our daughter has been ill with very real illnesses on many occasions, for which she is having genome testing for, yet in between, she looks quite well. It would be horrifying to think that people might think this way. In fact recently, we had to take her to the hospital with a high fever that had been escalating for over a week. And while there we were treated quite disparagingly. It’s just an ear infection we were told, and we were sent home. With nothing! But our daughter has had over 20 ear infections...and we knew that this was different. She couldn’t sit up, she was vomiting. And she had a temperature of 40.
We returned the following day, and this time I demanded she be seen by the ENT team. They booked us an out patients appt for three hours later, and asked us to vacate the bed and stand in the packed waiting room. Our husband sat on the floor so our daughter could lay across him. When the appt time came, they us to walk to the other side of the hospital. When we tried to take a wheelchair, we were stopped, and had the nurses rolling their eyes as we tried to explain our daughter couldn’t walk. She is 8, and quite capable of verbalising her lack of wellbeing herself. My husband ignored them and we took the chair, and off we went. She vomited outside the ENT reception, and passed out. And after rushing her in to see the ENT doctor, he discovered she had a very severe infection, and needed to admitted. I could have cried. Because we knew our daughter was ill, but the staff had made us feel like we were making it up. The frequent visitors, with no real knowledge of what her history was, we felt almost as if they were laughing at us behind our backs. On return to the ward, they had been rung ahead, and suddenly, they were all over us. Whole different attitude. I am still angry, it is an awful awful situation to be in. Where you are not believed, or deemed to be exaggerating. And I’m sure it is partly due to this awareness of things like Munchausens, that people are more quick to discredit or cast doubt. So for everyone who is struggling to get diagnosed or is having issues which are not being taken seriously, I really do sympathise.

Mumto2two, I'm so sorry to hear that happened- how awful for you and your daughter.

I guess this highlights that it's more important to believe people in the first instance than to jump to conclusions. However when it comes to 'Munchausen Syndrome' (creating or feigning illness in oneself) as opposed to suspected 'Munchausen-by-Proxy' it can sometimes be helpful for a close relative to suggest the sufferer gets some psychological help in addition to medical help.

I agree Aylarose, this would certainly be something that is more obvious to those who are close or familiar with that person. In the OPs case, it seems like the relative does have some real health issues, and perhaps she feels the need to have those validated, rather than just treated and forgotten?
That’s another tangent, it is the GP who tends to treat the everyday ongoing stuff, yet unless you are hospitalised or require further treatment or review, those issues can get normalised, and that must be frustrating. Take having a chest infection for example. One chest infection, fair enough. We’ve probably all had one. But you’d soon start worrying if you had them repeatedly? And unfortunately, GPs don’t always heed things like this. They just treat & go. I’ve seen it with my mum, and my late sibling, and now my daughter. So perhaps the OP’s relative actually warrants further attention? I know how frustrating it can be to have things acknowledged, and trust me, the NHS records system is dreadfully inadequate and disjointed, so sometimes you really do need to shout it from the rooftops. Labelling somebody as hypochondriac or worse, munchausen, could be doing them a serious misjustice.
Take the previous comment regarding the sick bowl, that really rung an uncomfortable bell with me. As when my daughter vomited, I really wanted to let them know. I too waved that sick bowl, and repeatedly told them she had been sick. Because I knew they were deliberately ignoring me, and I knew they were being dismissive of us. Oh yeah...it’s just a bit of vomit. Every kid vomits..it’s no big deal. But not a kid who has been ill for well over a week, and has suddenly got much worse, and has recently been in hospital with septicaemia, having also been dismissively sent home at the time...with just a virus. It made us feel so helpless...and now I have no doubt what those nurses thought, attention seeking mother with the waving sick bowl. Just ignore her..she’s probably got a touch of MbyP!

I agree zzzzz, of course it’s not an insult. It’s another very real condition. But it is unjust to label somebody with that, when that is just not the case.
And while doctors do indeed tend to work through a process of elimination and likelihood, some do it better than others.
And in some cases, until the specialist takes a good look, as in our daughters case, the patient is sometimes deemed ok!
We even found ourselves arguing with the nurses over DDs temperature. She was burning hot to touch, yet they had her stripped off, physically shivering next to an open window with a minus 5 gale blowing outside. Her arms were over her head, and they took an armpit temperature and deemed it 37. While our tympanic thermometer, repeatedly said 39.8. We kept insisting it had been done wrong. And when the doctor touched her, his first comment was how hot she was...it truly felt like the nurses were trying to discredit every single thing we said. The raised eyebrows, knowing glances and repeated eye rolls, I really wanted to go back and tell them how wrong they had been..how awful their care was, and how angry and helpless they made us feel.

I think what mumtotwo is talking about here is the very clear and obvious disrespect from the medical staff. Yeah investigate symptoms, go through the most obvious answers first but do that in a way that doesn't insult carers, invalidate the patient, or shoo people anyway with HA or MbP.
And in circumstances listed throughout the thread when people who got fobbed off or wrongly told their HA or M find out that there is something wrong and they were right to jump up and down to get noticed, medical professionals should apologise.

I read a really interesting book about this

www.amazon.co.uk/Sickened-True-Story-Lost-Childhood/dp/0099466295

About a mother who was obsessed with her child being sick for the attention x

These stories of people's illnesses being invalidated are so sad - even if there is exaggeration/complete fabrication, those individuals are still ill. Who wants to live like that really?

Mind you, I suppose in some peoples eye I have/had M/HA or similar. From a pre teen I had the most awful pain around my joints which as I progressed through puberty led to full joint dislocations. I had the first few 'treated' but soon learnt that it was a whole lot less pollava and less painful more quickly if I just relocated myself, which 9x out of 10 I could do. I became quick proficient in this, but this meant that my gp /several different orthopaedic consultants simply didn't believe the frequency of my dislocations. The first orthopaedic surgeon I saw told my parents (I was aged 9 at the time) that 'some people would operate on me, but absolutely not to let them as there was nothing wrong with the joint' and 'not to worry about missing school as I'd never make anything of myself or hold down a job'. I did years (literally) of physio, missed so much school and spent nearly all my teenage years on crutches. I was SO fed up and dislocating daily when I met the surgeon who is actually a god, he LISTENED to me, and asked if I minded him running tests again 'starting from scratch', I was so relieved that he was taking me seriously and ended up having two lots of corrective surgery both done by this guy, the first was key hole and immediately when I woke up he said 'it was a much bigger job than he had expected so wanted to discuss options'. I then had open surgery, which he said he could not believe the state of (joint) when he looked in, even after seeing it from keyhole work, and if only they had operated when I was a child I wouldn't have the lifelong pain and disability that I am left with but what more could I do? I've since been diagnosed with EDS.

@JustOneMoreStep Same experience here!

@Mumto2two Good Lord..... Did you confront the Nurses who rolled their eyes and the people who tried to stop you taking the wheelchair, afterwards?? X

@zzzzz they didn't 'discuss' surgery, they outright told my parents when I was about 9 that it wasn't an option and wouldn't help. I honestly believe that the years of physio were an attempt to passify my parents that they were doing 'something' whilst not actually doing anything. Physio was never going to do any good until they had diagnosed and addressed the issue - it took them 10years to do even think about doing that. After 6 months of physio they should have looked harder, as it became clear the physio alone wasn't working- I lost my adolescence because they didn't.

@Greymisty agree with you re Unrest however it should be essential viewing for all over a certain age as it can and does affect so many and crosses all barriers.

@WalkingOnAFlashlightBeam Agree with you too, however in my personal experience my mental health diagnosis have jumped off the page and the bed before anything else about me and judgement is made on that alone, i have had my bp taken in a&e at the same point as being told they were getting a psych consult yes it shot up as it was the 2nd time in as many months i was in with the same symptoms ... and about the 8th time that year as it was 1st test to do in their eyes....

including a protocol letter for them to follow from the consultant that dealt with the main condition but they wouldnt read it as it was nothing to do with Dr x they were waiting on mental health liaison,

so i finally had to wait till visiting time and get one of my visitors to help me make the call to consultants secretary to inform him i was in hospital and we needed to kick the protocol off,

The ward was waiting on psych consult and had queried about availablitiy of beds space in psych unit. (remember psych hasnt even seen me yet)

Consultant sent someone from his team to the ward to assess on his behalf, the team dr just showed his badge to a nurse and came to me and went thru all his tests with me (all neurological tests, i also couldnt speak or swallow properly and was behind sunglasses as photophobic and had ear plugs in to keep sounds out as sensitive, i was also paralysed and had been doubly incontinent), the nurses had been advised to leave me by the ward dr as id sort myself out when i got fed up "playing games." they had been doing sternum rubs and fingernail crushes to test for pain reactions, yes i could feel it i just couldnt move. When i couldnt speak properly one of the staff mocked me.

The team dr sent his report back to consultant who came from different hospital the next day and rounded to my bed with consultant from original ward and his gang of drs behind him,

Consultant was very angry as they ignored all the signs and symptoms and did a teaching session to correct things. Where he explained the complexeties of my conditions and called him out on such poor practice as having a mental health diagnosis doesnt mean you cant have other diagnosis and called on him to apologise to me for the way he had treated me in front of everyone and that he need not think he had heard the end of it as it wasnt acceptable,

The dr who apologised i knew hated me for it but turns out it wasnt the first time he had done similar to patient, so i believe his contract with the trust wasnt renewed.

I doubted myself for a long time afterwards as my symptoms wax and wane am i manufactoring them in some way either consciously or unconsciously? I was in hospital for over a month on neurology ward first for treatment then as a bed blocker as couldnt get me back home safely.

I asked the consultant his thoughts on malingering / unconscious somazatisation of symptoms which was 2 terms which had previously been used on discharge letters from previous hospital stays where he wasnt involved, i was given all clear in those cases by mh team tho

He put it in a letter to me so i can look at it if i doubt, he listed the symptoms, his qualifications, how long that hospital stay was exactly, the 3 steps forward 2 steps back, fall plans, me busting a gut daily with physio etc, symptoms going on around the clock and if he had thought i was malingering in the 1st place that would have been proof of the pudding and the symptoms and the signs which occured alongside them were impossible to fake.

I have a list of medications that i have reacted to over time but that time span is 25 years so not too bad but when i have to explain in detail when i get whats that medication and i give its names, what it was for, roughly when i took it, why, etc because i can talk it fluently when i can talk it seems to be "too efficient"

@NooNooHead1981 Im another who has had tardive dyskensia, mine resolved after coming off offending anti psychotic and having to go without for a couple of months before going to something else which gave me a break

@NooNooHead1981 @CleverQuacks @VanGoghsOtherEar I recognised a lot of myself in your posts, I was originally diagnosed with schizo affective disorder in late teens and it was changed in early 30s to EUPD among others

Very interesting thread. I really feel for doctors, especially GPs. Until I talked to GP friends I never realised just how often they get people in insisting they or their children are very ill when there appears to be absolutely nothing wrong with them. The GP is then up against a situation where they send the person/child for unnecessary tests and get hauled over the coals for incorrect referrals or they ask the person to go home and come back if they're not better, worrying that that person is really ill and may deteriorate quickly. I think a lot of doctors get compassion fatigue - they genuinely want to help people but they get so worn out from the burden of the work they have to do that when they see the fourth person who isn't really ill they start to get frustrated - they are only human after all. The problem is that not everybody presents with the same symptoms and some illnesses are very hard to diagnose so it can be genuinely difficult for something to get picked up - unless there's something for the doctor to actually see they have to assume you're not ill.

What I've found is that because I have a fair bit of medical knowledge and I can use jargon doctors take me a lot more seriously. I think that's actually a tactic a lot of people who fabricate illnesses use - they tend to read up on symptoms and use the right terms. One person I know who I suspect fabricates illnesses in her children is a nurse - she knows how to communicate that her child is very ill and doctors listen to that, even when there aren't any real symptoms.

I think the PPs who have commented about attention seeking are probably right, but not necessarily just drama llamas. I have a friend who is constantly on new diets, has intolerances and has had (undiagnosed) IBS, PCOS, endometriosis, early stages of type 2 diabetes, depression, bipolar, alcoholism risk, etc over the years. She is endlessly restricting something or trying some new fad and probably sees her GP at least once a month.

She is also three times divorced but desperate for happy ever after, she job hops, terribly jealous of her sister including still referring to teenage issues in her early 50s, jealous of friends, moves house every few years and always seems to be searching for an elusive something that will make her happy. She always see the positives in everyone’s life and then compares her negatives to the . There is no balance as we all have issues to go with the fun stuff. I think she is actually terribly unhappy and the health issues are part of her trying to find the solution.

It is hard and I do have to keep my distance sometimes. It was particularly tricky when I had some catastrophic health issues of my own that manifested in a very early hysterectomy and left me with a lot of problems. She almost seemed jealous of the attention and hospital stay (she genuinely couldn’t understand why I wanted to go home) and tried to scare me with comments about never having proper sex again, etc. She is a good friend, but if I could have a wish for her, it would be for her to find personal happiness and fulfilment. I think her health would improve in no time.